Why is it so hard to find neutral?

When shifting from 2nd into neutral, it usually ends up in 1st. Then
when going from 1st into neutral, it ends up in 2nd. It seems that no
matter how gentle I try to shift, it goes right past neutral. Why is
this and what can I do to rectify the problem?
I'm using 10-40 oil and just got the oil replaced, so i don't suppose
it's slipping due to bad oil.

The bike is a 83 Kawi GPz305 with 23,000 km that I'm restoring. Aside
from this problem all gears seems to shift OK, although the clutch is
nearing its end but still has some life left. Since this is a bike for
the wife to learn to ride on, this is sure to prove to be a problem
for her. Even I have a tough time finding neutral when coming to a
stop, so I can just imagine the difficulty and frustration she'll have
while learning to ride the thing. On a side note (and I'm not sure if
this is relevant or just how the bike was designed) it doesn't shift
into 2nd while stopped. It shifts fine when moving but never while the
rear wheel isn't moving.

If this is an easy fix (the neutral issue), can someone please post
detailed instructions on what needs to be done? I have a service
manual that I can refer to, if the work isn't too complicated and is
something I can do on my own.
Thanks

 

There is no neutral at the bottom to keep you from
accidentally being in neutral as you are slowing or braking
in the vent you need to accelerate quickly. If the bike is
moving, it should pretty much always be "in gear". If the
neutral is at the bottom, you would always have to be
counting shifts to be sure it is in gear. This may be a
problem if you are distracted by the efforts to save your
ass at the moment. If the Kaw is shifting down from second
to first, it is as it should be. If it does not stop in
neutral when shifting up from first with the bike stopped,
it probably has a problem with the shifter detent. Key word
here is "stopped". If the bike is rolling at all, it will
upshift to second. In other word, it will not go into
neutral if the wheels are moving - it must be completely
stopped. If it is not working correctly it may be as simple
as a weak detent spring. Don't know about the 305 but, most
Kaws I have seen, you have to remove the sprocket cover, the
sprocket and the trans cover to get at the shifting
mechanism to see what is going on. Some aspects of the
shifting mechanism are adjustable in some manner. In any
case, the Kaw should not overshift into second if the bike
is stopped.

Lugnut

 

If so then it would be more time-consuming, sometimes in a critical
riding situation when every millisecond counts, to find 1st when
downshifting.

SQ

 

Oh, so that's what that is. I find it incredible that this feature had
been implemented some 25 years ago or longer. Truly amazing. Yeah,
since that's the case I'm convinced that there is nothing wrong with
my tranny, now that I understand what it's doing. What you describe
makes absolute sense as it fits exactly with what my bike is doing.

The best part is, the wife gets to learn the proper way, which will
also facilitate things for her. It is my bad riding habit that prompts
me to go into neutral before coming to a stop. A habit that the wife
won't inherit thanks to this feature. This is my first Kawi, so the
concept was unknown to me, although I have heard of it.

Say what you will about Kawasaki. When it comes to sport bikes I find
that there are only two serious players, Kawi and Suzuki. It seems to
me that these are the most innovative, aggressive players and the
others are conservative, follow the leader. Your opinion may differ,
of course.

Thanks for the clarification. I get to sleep in peace now.

 

And between third and fourth, on mine. And between second and third. And
between fifth and sixth. nd between first and third. And third and
sixth. And fourth and fifth....

You're not being very bright.

Wrong again. Some years ago, everyone did it differently. Brit bikes -
right foot shift. Early Laverdas - right foot shift. Jap bikes, left
foot shift, and some (Suzuki) had a shaft that allowed you to swap from
right to left. Early MV: right hand shift, one up, three down. My old
Kawasaki H1: left foot, with neutral at the bottom, as you describe. My
old Yamaha YB100: left foot shift, "all down", with neutral at the top.

Someone sensibly decided standardisation was a Good Thing.

 

Yup.

Gotta always be ready to cut and run.

Horns, eye contact, reflective vests, flashing LED brake lights, and
all the rest can help a little, but always be ready to cut and run.
That is a rider's greatest strength for road safety.

 

If you study the shifter detent mechanism in online parts fiches like
www.bikebandit.com, you will probably find that there is a spring-
loaded ball that drops into one of six or seven "valleys" in a star-
shaped cam attached to the end of the shifter drum.

Most star-shaped cams are symmetrical, the cam has to rotate the same
number of degrees between any two gears or between first gear and
neutral or second gear and neutral, but I have seen at least one Honda
that did not have a symmetrical shifter detent cam.

The symmetricality of the shifter cam results in the rider having to
move the shifter lever a smaller distance to shift from any of the
higher gears to the next lower or higher gear, but the rider has to
remember to move the shift lever further when shifting from first to
second or second to first.

Most riders do not realize this simple fact of life about the shifter
cam design, and they wind up in false neutrals when shifting, or they
have problems finding true neutral.

In order to get more precise gear detention, you can replace the
compression spring with a stiffer spring found in a hardware store.

More modern designs have done away with the compression spring-loaded
detent ball and have replaced it with a spring-loaded roller on a
pivoting arm. The roller drops into one of the valleys on the "star
wheel".

The spring on the later detent devices is a tension spring.

Kawasaki has been using its own positive neutral finder for at least
30 years now. The PNF consists of a 5/16ths steel ball which falls
into a hole in a sleeve in second gear. The system is very reliable,
only one rider has ever complained to thsi forum about getting stuck
in first gear and being unable to shift to second because the PNF
jammed.

 

You are joking right?

 

Kawasaki used to have it that way. The feds told them they had to put
it between 1st and 2nd as would everyone else. I still have an old
Kawsaki tripple that I ride occasionally and can tell you that with
neutral all the way down you must pay attention to what gear you are
in or you will get a wakeup call when you downshift into neutral
thinking you were going to get 1st.

Bruce

 

Some of us have driven vehicles other than bikes. I've
driven vehicles with as many as 30 forward speeds and 3
separate shift levers ot use them. Whether you like it or
not, you will in some way keep track of your gear positions
or screw a 10K transmission.

As far as the shift pattern goes, it was developed with
input from numerous sources from around the world including
bike riders and racers, the manufacturing industry, the SAE
and many others. Politicians had little to do with
developing the bike standards other than facilitating the
regulatory aspects of it. Thanks to the "standard" you can
move from almost any bike to another and know exactly where
the basic controls are and how they work which goes a long
ways toward promoting safe operation of the machines. When
the change was made, there was a lot of bickering from old
school bikers including myself protesting the change to what
we perceived to be a Japanese way of doing things. At the
time and for some time later, I was a fan of and owned
several Triumphs of various vintage and configuration. I
think as it turned out, they were just ahead of the curve at
the time. I clearly remember my first couple of trips on a
bike with the current standards like downshifting when I
really wanted to brake or braking when I downshifted. Some
habit just die slowly. Now, It doesn't really matter to me
what bike I get on, it is not a problem. As far as the
Indian suicide shift, that is what my '47 Indian Chief had
on it along with a hand spark control and foot clutch and no
throttle return spring (early form of cruise control). I
love some of the old bikes as much as the next but, the new
bikes are light years ahead of them in almost every aspect.
Much of this is due to the "standards" enabling many more
riders safely operate the machines and go from one to
another easily.

Lastly, we keep getting the same f**cked up politicians
because noone can see anything wrong with their own
politician. It's always the one from some other district
that is the problem. I say put'em all on the street and
let's start over. At least we'll spread the pork out a
little bit!!

Lugnut

 

It's not a big deal for me either. Nowadays, it is less
trouble than it was on one of my old Triumph Bonnies that
had a neutral between every gear when I didn't want it and
neber could find neutral when stopped in traffic. The
standard did not eliminate some machines having that odd
neutral between gears but, it does make it easier to find it
every time if you are stopped. No big deal; the engineers
figured out a way to comply with the standards and make it
work pretty much every time to just let the machine handle
the details. It works too well for the politicians or
bureaucrats to have come up with it.

Lugnut

 

On Apr 25, 9:41 am, "Blattus Slafaly ? (3) ¼ "

Do yourself a favor: stay away from dirt bikes

 

Actually the early Kawasaki triples were kinda lacking in the brakes
department. I can remember one time when I put my feet down trying to
stop because it seemed like they had more effect!!!

Bruce

 

WELL, it certainly is not a bad thing............unlike quoting back 35
lines and then adding only ONE.

Trim your quotes, putz.

 

Very good advice, but could I offer that instead of two feet, you'll find
you have a system that works in more settings by putting your left foot
down. At extremely slow speeds, you'll be using the friction zone and
dragging the rear brake and by not disengaging from that brake, you're able
to transition between a fully committed stop and the very slow motion
regimes. On any sort of an incline, you'll be able to hold the bike in
place while stopped as well. Police instructors teach this method because
of the versatility it offers. Of course too, as one stops, you need to
leave room for a quick departure without a lot of turning in case the car
behind you comes in too hot.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
99 KZ1000P
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)

 

One situation where the counting method breaks down significantly is the
emergency stop. You have a lot to manage, like traction, and as you stop
and pump the shifter toward lower gears, it would be trivial to lose count.
When I was riding (seemingly a past tense) and working police skills, I
drilled on emergency stops on every single ride. I found during the few too
many real emergency stops I've made that even extreme muscle memory did not
give me (and perhaps this is only me) any intellectual bandwidth to process
anything at these times. You want to land in first when you stop and be
ready to ride out of the event if it has not completed unfolding by the
time you scrub most of your speed.

Mike


--
Mike W.
96 XR400
99 KZ1000P
70 CT70
71 KG 100 (Hodaka-powered)