Which course?

Yes, I have done both.

Actually, alx picked the Superbike School and I just agreed with him,
'cos it looked like you'd just continue faffing about and end up not
doing either course.

The way you posed the question left me thinking that any course is much
better than just considering courses in general.

Superbike School L1 concentrates on cornering.... not much else.
It teaches you how hard you can actually corner.
It lets you learn what bits scrape first, and lets you explore towards
the limits of your bikes cornering abilities in a relatively safe
environment.

This is useful to all motorcycle riders, and, if someone intends to do
the likes of trackdays, I reckon it's almost essential.

Both HART and StayUpright are much more general courses, and include
roadcraft (for the lack of a better term).

In Sydney, SU use Eastern Creek, which is not the ideal setting for what
they are trying to teach, Amaroo was much better, while HART have the
training track at St.Ives, the old police training place, which is much
more representative of the real world.

The "real world" track was why I picked HART rather than SU.

Both courses, BTW, will have back references to "what did they teach you
at pre-learners", which won't mean much to you, not having done that
course, but will be to do with what are seen as bad habits.....

number of fingers on brake lever.

when you come to a stop are you sitting, in gear, foot on brake, clutch
in ready to go again.

That kind of stuff.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Oh ye of little faith...

Thanks for your comments.

I really don't think I want to go scraping bits at all. :-(

But let's cut to the chase, Cam. You know enough about me, my lack of
skills, my age, my dumbfuckery, my riding aspirations, etc, to give me
your frank opinion about which course I should do. (HART?)

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

Further to the above: I've looked at both HART and SU websites and I
find SU's blurb for their Advanced I course to be the more impressive
blurb. But that's all I've got o go on, blurb, and it's useless.

I need objective comparisons by those who have done the courses they
are comparing.

Not interests in the old Ford/Holden brand politics/loyalty/tribalist
type of thing.

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

OK..new spin to break the analysis paralysis...if you do L1 you
will :-

GRIN MORE,
THINK MORE about what you are doing.


Gerry, you appear to have an analytical mind, perhaps with a penchant
for military-style drill/training, The L1 course (well..all four
levels really) approach each topic in a methodical, deconstructive
manner..throwing it all back together by the end of the day, under
close supervision all the way.

It's not about scraping bits..the whole point of proper cornering is
to NOT look like a wanker on the public road by unnecessarily and
dangerously scraping bits of bike when there are more efficient and
safer means of navigating the same corner, with style, confidence,
reserves (of both mental and physical abilities).

 

oh..and you're now officially an Old Dog like most of us (although
some tend to carry on like whiney teenagers). So you might as well
enjoy the remaining years of riding... get the most out of the new
wheels..as the whole defensive riding thing must already be working
for you sufficiently for the time being.

 

One practical aspect you might take into account is that HART and SU
are ok with street legal/recommended gear, textile jackets and kevlar
jeans etc - but CS School require at least zipped one piece leathers,
taped or removed mirrors and tape over the speedo.

You can hire leathers at the track but if you normally don't use them
they feel odd for a while and you may find it less distracting to ride
in what you normally do.

One thing I found useful was to write stuff down as soon as you could
- information overload on the day is a real possibility - and ask
questions about anything not explained well, or that you doubt.

Me, I'm still trying to find an instructor to spend some quality 1 on
1 time with - best, Andrew

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 8 Sep 2011 21:28:01 -0700 (PDT)

When I did the superbike course my armoured cordura was fine.

If in doubt, contact them.

Zebee

 

On 09/09/11 10:50 AM, Diogenes wrote:

Perhaps not, but knowing exactly when it can happen, what it feels like,
and not panicking if it does happen, are all useful.

SU and HART both do very good courses.

I have said that I reckon the HART track is possibly better than doing a
course at E.C., but the difference is so little that, if you decided to
do an SU course, at E.C. because it is easier for you to get to, I don't
thing you would loose out on making that decision.

In other words, take your pick....... and do a course!

regards,
CrazyCam

 

On 09/09/11 1:11 PM, alx wrote:

Alternatively..... they treat you like a child.... they explain only
exactly what they want to explain, and, if asked questions outside their
script, they can sound very like politicians, ignoring, over riding, or
answering a totally different question.

BTW, their whole spiel is built around getting you to do all four courses.

Zebee..... go on, tell them what you thought of their course.

Also, the odd reverential reference to guru Kieth Code and California
being the seat of all wisdom, might just get up Gerry's nose.
It did mine.

Be nice alx..... Gerry will be on his cruiser thingy.... I'm not sure
it's possible to get round Turn 2 at E.C. on one of them without
scraping something. ;-)

People who go on courses can react in various ways...... not all are the
same. Some courses work for some people, but not for others.

I certainly don't know Gerry well enough to predict how he might react,
to any of the courses under discussion.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Good point Andrew. I had forgotten about that.

Another good point.

May I ask what you would like to achieve with this one on one time?

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Spiel or structured learning - take your pick.

LOL, no..ausmoto archives are fine. Seen it all before.

That's alright, it's only for one day. Pucker up and take it

Nothing in any of my commentary should be perceived as anything but
nice, helpful, infiormative and respectful of others opinions.

I've made these comments fully cognisant that Gerry is on a cruiser
type bike. That is not a barrier to completing such a course. Indeed
have seen a wide range of bikes and their slaves out at EC.

Yes, I'm up on all the commentary on the style and ideology etc etc of
Code's stuff.

All that aside, it gets the job done for many people. It's a global
franchise and the formula is successful. It filled in gaps in my
skillset and confidence that SU and some years of riding and club
racing that did not manage to patch over.

My experience with SU advanced was I came away thinking I knew the
stuff already (but nice to have it confirmed) whereas SBS was much
more of an eye opener and less about witches hats in the car park
style of training and push-on-the-handlebar-Ok-lets-move-on feel about
it . (I did it at Amaroo too).

That's up to Gerry, but as a fellow moto sicklelist, I wish him well,
look forward to hearing his informed views after the event and am sure
he'll gain real value in doing either course.

 

Yep, two piece leathers (not single piece) now required.

"
Yes, you need leather pants and a leather jacket that zip together as
a minimum. You will also need a full-face helmet, leather motorcycle
gloves and calf-length or higher leather motorcycle boots. If you
don’t have your own leathers or other riding gear you can hire them –
see Hire Bikes and Gear for more information.
"

Note the speeds achieved are not all that great. Most of the drills
are 3rd gear and light/no braking.

 

In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 9 Sep 2011 00:07:43 -0700 (PDT)

Other riding gear may mean helmets or gloves but if you don't have
leathers then contact them and see if what you do have counts.

What's the worst that can happen?

Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Fri, 09 Sep 2011 15:17:15 +1000

Level one was excellent. Everyone should do it.

The level 2 I went to was badly organised, and when I told them
that I was having problems I was told that they were excellent
teachers so that any difficulty must be mine for being a bad student.

THey also said when asked about riding on the road and how to
transfer their track training to the road, that roads in Australian
were built to a plan so you could assume where the corners were and
what they were like because they'd be the same as roads elsewhere
in the country.

I am not sure which of those two statements is the sillier but I'll go
for #2.

#1 just makes teachers roll their eyes, #2 makes everyone do it.

Zebee

 

I've done all of the Stay Upright except for advanced cornering and
braking. I was about to do Superbikes level 1 and 2 but some men in
white coats and a lady in a skirt had strong opinions about that. To
their (Californian Superbiles) credit I got all my money back.
Prior to booking the course, at a track day, some Supers instructors
bent my ear about how I would be able to get around the track better
if I took their course. Level 1 was supposed to be about confidence,
then the other levels follow the format of TOTW.
Sounded good to me.
HTH, Cam

 

Yep.silly answers..and a question I would have presumed the well-oiled
SBS franchise would have ironed out by now. After all, MOST of their
clients spend more time on the public road than at either track days
or race days.

I'd put it as:-

knowing what and how to spend ones finite attention on the important
things when tackling a corner.
Where to look, what to look for, what the vanishing point is and how
it relates to the bikes line through the corner, minimising/
eliminating mid-corner corrections in either line or throttle.
What the options and consequences are for mid-corner surprises (or
even before getting into the corner with a too-hot approach)
relax, relax and ...relax.

To suggest that all corners are neatly packaged and predictable is
naive.

Many back roads, some of convict-era layout, don't tend to yield much
when hit by a motorcycle.

Just picture some of the corners between Kulnura and Wollombi.

 

Huge thanks to all who offered their advice and opinions. Much
appreciated.

Given that HART only got a noteworthy mention from Cam, it's out of
the frame. (Probably unfair, but I'd say they need to either close
the place down or get some proper marketing happening. Especially on
their major public portal, their website.)

OK, so we've killed HART because they don't know how to sell their
wares in such a competitive field. In other words, they don't know
how to communicate. On with the show...

Now it's down to SU Advanced I, and SBS L1.

On the one hand, I gather from the comments that SBS is the more
serious course when it comes to bike handling skills (which is my main
reason for doing a course), but on the other hand, being an Old Dog
who is not into scraping in corners and who might find it hard to
learn too many new tricks, and who really only wants to be able to
negotiate bends and hairpins more safely and confidently (at non-hoon
speeds), I guess the SU course is fine for me.

So, failing any last minute attempts to re-shape my brain, that's the
way I'll go.

But...

Being a dreamer, I HAVE A DREAM !!!! I dream that one day, a bunch of
non-aligned experts (probably sponsored by a bike magazine) puts up a
"Which course is the right one for you?" website which works like
this:

[1] You do an in-depth questionaire which determines your experience
level, your skill level, your confidence level, your age, your
motocycling usage pattern, your fears, your learning expectations, the
type of bike you have, any accidents you've had and what caused them,
etc, etc, etc.

[2] The information from [1] is then processed by a clever program
written by the IT guys under supervision by our panel of experts
(including a training psychologist), to determine which course from
which school is most appropriate for you.

[3] Out pops a summary of which course is the best one for you and
why.

It's just a silly dream...


=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

Yep. If such a website existed the company who dipped out would
immediately change its course to become more competitive. Then the next
one who dipped out would do the same... and so on.

The thing would be out of date minutes after the companies reviewed their
ranking.

Thats the free market for you!

 

I think you're missing my point. There would be no overall
rating/ranking. Each individual case (questionaire) would create its
own individual recommendation.

Yes,the various schools would use the site to submit a variety of
"typical" profiles to see which course would pop up, but they would
not (short of corruption entering the equation) know the details of
the selection criteria involved, hence they would not know what to
change.

All they could do (and they are no doubt already doing it) is to send
spies to the oher courses to see wha they might want to 'steal'.

And as they make changes to their courses, this would come to the
awareness of the panel overseeing the website and they would update
the relevant algorithms.

So, what would happen is better cusomer service.

Yep.

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

So you've asked people to comment on the quality of course providers but
you're substantially basing your decision on the quality of the
marketing departments rather than the course instructors...

Nev..