Wheelie School

I can't help but be swayed by your argument, Dave. Can you explain why?

Ok, the 1/16th was just an estimate. I can see that high speed you'll
keep the throttle quite still, but at low speed where wind isn't a
factor, a little throttle movement to keep it balanced seems (to me at
least) to make sense.

**** sake Dave, you started it!

 

Where's my popcorn.

 

Quiet Gower ;-)

 

<Keeps quiet but /thinks/ about popcorn>

--
Krusty
www.MuddyStuff.co.uk
Off-Road Classifieds

'02 MV Senna '03 Tiger 955i '96 Tiger '79 Fantic Hiro 250

 

All this talk of intentional wheelies is a completely closed book to me.
I go to a great deal of trouble attempting to suppress them whilst at
the hill climbing.

A perfect start may involve a nice little lift of the wheel possibly
preceded by a modicum of rear wheel spin. A big 'skyer' is always
counterproductive, particularly at a hill where the first bend is
shortly after the start and even more so when that bend is a hairpin.

A wheel pawing the air too much means more wind resistance and lost time
anywhere on the hill. Even the Tart can power wheelie out of a hairpin
or a slowish bend. Very satisfying when the front just patters a bit but
more of a time loser if it comes up higher and in a twist big enough to
require an easing of wrist tension. For some reason most road bikes I
have ridden exhibit the tendency for the front to twist as they lift the
wheel. MX based machines seem less prone to it. he Tart was also doing
it cresting the 'mountain' at Cadwell.

Can you recommend a technique to counter this (waiting until it is
absolutely upright and in a straight line before giving it the beans
rather defeats the object of the exercise) ?

--

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| Gilera GFR Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------+

 

Mmmm. I suspect you're right.

Can I have that struck from the record and the phrase "killing the
engine will bring you back down in the way that remembering to close the
throttle while you're vertical and hanging on to the bars for grim death
might not"

 

Shawly a bike with a 27deg head angle only needs to be at 63 degrees,
yet ...

18 degrees don't sound, or look, much, tbh.
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You cannot learn to do something that can very easily kill you without
making mistakes. If you're not allowed to make those mistakes you learn
nothing.

Wheelies are simple. They're probably technically easier than learning
to change gear: accelerate to X-MPH (25-35mph on a standard geared
Bandit 12), open throttle quickly enough for the front wheel to lift,
keep throttle smooth to ride the wheelie until the rev limiter is met.

That's it. It couldn't be easier. In those four lines is the entire
secret of how to wheelie.

What not to do, on the other hand, will take about 15,000 words to
explain. A wheelie school is not really there to teach you what to do,
but what not to do and how to handle the situation if you do what you
weren't suppose to.

Imagine going to a race school, and they have a frame and electronics
that means you can go as hard as you want into a corner without
crashing. You can happily scream into a 40mph corner at 180mph - it
doesn't matter because the so-called 'safety' mechanism will sort out
the mistake. You spend the rest of the day relying on that system to
keep you out of trouble. What have you learnt about how to enter a
corner? What have you learnt about how to control the bike when you
realise you've cocked-up?

It's pretty difficult to learn how to control a mistake when you're not
allowed to make one.

Now imagine not only being taught how to wheelie in an environment where
no real mistake can happen, but where you're being taught by someone who
is teaching a dangerous technique, whose quality control is simply
abysmal. You're being taught how to kill yourself, and paying for the
privilege.

There should be no violence in a wheelie, no choppiness on the throttle,
definitely nothing even close to using full throttle. The wheel should
lift smoothly, gently, in complete control.

If the wheel comes up too quickly, or worse still, violently, then there
are only a couple of things that will happen. The rider will shit
himself and slam the throttle closed - which is the correct thing to do.
Sadly what most people do is try to save the wheelie. As the front comes
down they think 'ooh, I can save this' and instantly open the throttle
again. This takes the rider straight into choppy throttle territory and
once you're there you're there until the front wheel hits the deck again
.... assuming the chopping on the throttle doesn't cause you to crash.

Or the violent lift takes you straight off the back. Although most
people think this is how they're most likely to crash a wheelie, it
usually isn't - except those people who've been taught to whack the
throttle open and rely on a switch, anyway. And if a switch is removing
the most important lesson of all because it closes the throttle for the
rider, then the rider really is learning nothing of any importance what
so ever. How not to crash is a damn site more important to learn than
how to whack a throttle wide open and rely on a switch to control the
bike for you.

The most common cause of a wheelie crash is choppy throttle - either
trying to save a wheelie after it's come up too quickly, or by the rider
going too high mid-wheelie, which triggers their self-preservation to
kick in and close the throttle ... except they've learnt to save
wheelies when they're dropping (in the context of Burnett's school,
thanks to being taught to lift the front violently and then throttling
off to try and catch the wheelie) so they open the throttle again. And
guess what that creates? Yep, choppy throttle.

Burnett taught that his idea of 'some' choppiness was acceptable - it's
not. Ever.

If you feel yourself even thinking about being choppy or saving a
wheelie the only safe reaction is to put the wheel down. It's only a
wheelie.

The problem with Burnett was what he considered a little throttle
movement is what the rest of us would call too damn much. You're right,
eventually you do get to a point where you have to make tiny adjustments
with the throttle - but they really are tiny. If you notice you're doing
it then that's probably too much. If someone watching you can hear it,
then that's definitely too much. If it can be seen, it's also definitely
too much.

This is one of the reasons why smaller bikes are better for learning
balance point wheelies - if you make a mistake which makes you a little
choppy on the throttle then there's less power to slam you into the
floor and more time to put the wheel down and start again.

If you're tense, then you will be choppy on the throttle. If you're
going for high wheelies, such as balance point ones, then you're going
to be scared - what you have to be is be scared but physically relaxed.

You've seen that vid of the guy losing a wheelie on a foreign motorway,
being slammed off his bike that was on the Fastbikes or Superbikes DVD
(which I now can't find anywhere)? It's been posted a zillion times. He
crashes because he chops the throttle.

Apart from taking you off the back, chopping also makes the bike move
sideways, too, and creates the equivalent of a tank-slapper - a
wheelie-slapper. Exactly what you see on the Fastbikes/Superbikes vid.
In fact, what you actually see if you watch it closely enough is the
rider launch the front too quickly, shit himself and slam the throttle
closed, realise he's not going off the back and opens the throttle again
- result, wheelie-slapper and a big crash.

Exactly the same technique, if slightly exaggerated, that Burnett
taught.

The other problem with even only a tiny amount of throttle chop is that
because it causes the bike to move underneath you, if something goes
wrong - such as losing traction, the road drops away (which allows the
rear wheel to suddenly accelerate from underneath you and is damn scary
when it happens. It only needs to be a couple of inches, too.), there's
an electrical problem etc. etc. - you won't know until it's too late
because the warning signs were masked by the choppy throttle.

I spent two years re-teaching too many of Burnett's old pupils. What I
saw them do, what they said they'd been taught and what I already knew
about the man's ability to wheelie and how he taught people to wheelie,
was absolutely terrifying.

The worst thing of all is, if you go to a school to learn something then
you obviously not only don't know what you're doing but will also not
know if what you're being taught is wrong or even dangerous.

Thankfully that school is gone, and many of us are very happy about
that.

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
POST PRODUCTION http://www.iq18films.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me

 

Theoretically it's not - but try and wheelie in those other 18 degrees
and you find it's a whole different world.

Or, put another way, being just three seconds slower than someone else
on a race track who's riding the same bike as you is almost nothing ...
but try and catch the bugger and you find that those three seconds are
actually a damn site more than just three seconds.

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
POST PRODUCTION http://www.iq18films.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me

 

I can't speak for wheelies, but there is a slight difference between
an engine that's on the overrun and firing and an engine that's on the
overrun and not. Like many FI vehicles, the Bosch FI system on my old
K100 would cut the injection on the overrun, in that case above
2000rpm; as speed dropped below 2K there was a slight surge as the FI
kicked back in, though it was only really noticeable in the lower few
gears.

Recently I noticed the same effect on one of my current bikes, though
I forget which. Probably the Tuono.

 

Agreed, which is why the switch was always set just that bit further
than you'd expect so you could learn all you like but the switch was a
useful fallback

I did loads of those, mainly when I'd not popped the front up quick
enough.

You mean the way that some car schools teach skills which limit adhesion
so you can experience slide and drift without hurting yourself? Those
bad boys ;-)

That'd the thing with the switch, if you get it right in later stages
the switch sits there getting bored. I'd rather learn on to do it with a
mechanical fallback as a safety net than not.

I have to say the day itself was nice and safe, and the trainers were
paying lots of attention to all of the students

Perhaps I should have said "up it popped" as that doesn't seem so
controversial

Adreed, that's bad, either it's up or it's not.

I think you're getting hugely tied up with the switch being something
you use every day rather than a safety fall back. The initial bit is to
get you confident in the switch, after that the switch is a fall-back if
you **** up.

You say choppiness, I'd go for bike positioning using appropriate
throttle, but I guess that's terminology

If it's going down it's going down. Agreed.

But of course the movements are less at high speed.

So if you don't have enough grunt to manage the wheelie with small
movements, surely you end up with bigger "chopping"

Which you can be with a switch back-stop

There's wobbling the throttle to keep balance at 40mph, another
recovering a 100mph+ tail end wobble

Wot, like this?
http://www.fastforwardtraining.co.uk/courses.htm

 

www.stuntwheelieschool.com

"Our records show that this account is due for renewal. To re-activate
your account please calll 0870 755 5088 and ask for our renewals team."

 

Ahh, XT500, 1978, pub[1] wall, missed by an inch, jumpers for
goalposts..

[1] The Old Silk Mill, when it was a proper[2] pub
[2] I'm lead to believe that it was taken over and trendified sometime
in the 1980s.
--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

Ace says...

The Crown in Bedford was a bikers pub for years before it became a Wine
Bar. I was always reminded of Alexei Sayle's description of a wine bar -
"They don't call wine bars wine bars because of what you drink while you
are dining, they call wine bars fucking wine bars cos they're full of
people whining."

 

Veggie in "bikes can be dangerous" shocker!

BTW they can also kill[1] you even if you've never 'learned' how to
wheelie (or stoppie).

Couldn't stand the competition, eh?

[1] Or very nearly, for the more lucky amongst us.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

No, I'm sorry, there isn't time.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3 (slightly broken, currently missing)
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2, IBB#10
`\|/`
`

 

Zen popcorn?

 

8< knowledgeable stuff

OK, I'll join in

A lot of the wheelies I loft are done over a short distance, say 300 to 500
yards (or whenever I get a piece of straight flat road) )

However, I also have also lofted an awful lot over a considerably longer
distance, in fact the road I used to practice a lot on is a lovely stretch
of dual carriage way near my house and the longest straightish bit is 1.6
miles (yes I have measured it) and most of the time I can hold the wheelie
for this distance without much trouble either up in the top end of second
gear or 7 to 8 thou in third now I guess this must be a balance point of
sorts because the engine revs aren't climbing but like you say above I am
usually into 3 figures, in fact I find the most comfortable speed to loft it
is around the 40 to 60mph bracket and nearly always clutched up in second.

Do you fancy doing an intermediate wheelie school to teach us ham-fisted
pilots to wheelie at slower speeds?

 

Y'know those threads where some arsehole comes along whose read the
basic manual to something you're an expert on and tries to tell you
you're an idiot?

Well, this is one of those threads...

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
POST PRODUCTION http://www.iq18films.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me

 

It's definitely, 100% gone. That page is out of date.

Also, have you wondered why it's only this one school I'm slagging off?
But then, you did a whole day there and therefore are far more
experienced and knowledgeable on the subject than I am so, to use your
own words, what do I know...

--
Veggie Dave
UKRMHRC#2 BOTAFOF#08
IQ 18 FILMS http://www.iq18films.com
POST PRODUCTION http://www.iq18films.co.uk
Toxic Shock Syndrome Gets More Girls Than Me