What does "poor handling" mean?

What does it mean if a motorycle handles poorly? I know it has something to
do with performances when turning.
What makes a motorycle handles poorly?

Some of the motorcycles I'm considering buying has been criticized as such
(e.g. v-max), and I want to know if it's something I can live with.

 

A poor handling motorcycle has an imbalance in front to rear traction,
often because the front and rear tires are so mismatched in size and
the weight is improperly distributed from front to rear.

The V-Max has a very mis-matched set of tires and its weight is far to
the rear, mostly for styling reasons.

V-Maxes are styled for the drag strip. Kawasaki also built some drag
strip styled Eliminators. Drag strip styled motorcycles and choppers
don't want to turn corners, they want to go straight ahead.

Going straight when you want to go straight is called "stability".

Going straight ahead when you want to turn is poor handling.

Cruisers are also styled with excessively wide rear tires because
riders used to think that indicated a powerful engine. If a cruiser has
a front tire that's close to the size of the rear tire, the machine
will handle better, but it will still require a lot of strength to
steer, or really wide handlebars to get enough leverage to turn the
machine.

Consider some of the basics of motorcycle handling and stability.

A motorcycle is variably unstable in the roll axis. If you get off of
it and let go of the handlebars, it will flop over on its side. A
motorcycle becomes more stable the faster you ride, up to a limit.
That's when the motorcycle feels just great and it's a wonderful
feeling to ride down the road with a machine that seems responsive to
the rider's will.

But there is a critical speed at which the front tire can no longer
provide enough side thrust to stabilize the motorcycle in a vertical
attitude. Then the motorcycle will begin a violent speed weave that can
throw the rider off. And that goes back to poor handling, if the rider
likes to cruise at 100 mph and the machine starts to weave at 85 mph.

As you ride in a straight line down the road, a motorcycle always
trying to fall over to one side or the other.

The front tire catches the fall, if it has enough traction, and it
pushes the motorcycle upright again, working through the short lever
arm called "trail".

If you push a shopping cart down the aisle of a supermarket, observe
the action of the front wheels on their casters. As soon as you start
pushing the cart, the wheels align themselves with the direction of
travel because the contact point trails the pivot, or steering axis.

A motorcycle front wheel aligns itself with the direction of travel
too, but it also pushes the motorcycle back to the vertical everytime
it tries to fall over to one side, and it is always trying to fall over
to one side or the other.

A rider who knows what's going on may feel a slight waggling of the
handlebars, or notice that the motorcycle isn't going exactly straight
down the road, it's weaving from side to side at a very low frequency.

That's the beginning of poor handling and instability. Triumph once
fielded a team of
road racing machinery to compete at Daytona raceway in the classic 200
mile event.

The racers had what was called "Daytona steering geometry". The forks
were raked out to 32 degrees and they had 5 or 6 inches of trail. Those
motorcycles actually handled poorly as regards to being quick to turn
into a corner. But they were very stable and more confidence inspiring
to the riders than previous machines which had weaved and wobbled
badly.

Part of the problem was older, harder rubber compounds. The rear tire
had so little traction that the rider had to sit over the rear wheel to
keep the tire from spinning whenhe applied a lot of power. This
unweighted the front tire and made its job of atabilizing the chassi in
a vertical mode almost impossible.

Yamaha came along a few years later with TZ-750 racers that used only
23 degrees of rake and 3.5 inches of trail. They could make the radical
change in steering geometry because their front tires had so much more
traction and their weight was pushed further forward.

And, skilled dirt track rackers like Kenny Roberts liked being able to
spin the rear tire to make the machine turn quicker.

Usually, the more trail a motorcycle needs to automatically stay
upright, the worse handling the machine will be.

Trail is the distance between an extended line projecting from the
steering axis to the pavement and a line extending to the pavement from
the center of the front axle.

If you extend a straight line through the steering pivot axis to the
pavement ahead of the tire contact patch and make a mark on the
pavement, and then drop a plumb line from the center of the front axle
to the pavement and mark the pavement again, the distance between the
two marks would be trail.

Trail can normally range anywhere from 3 inches to 4.5 inches. Trail
can be ridiculously large in evil handling motorcycles like choppers
with raked out front forks.

Balance in front to rear traction due to tire grip and steering
geometry. The rear tire is typically as much as an inch wider than the
front on most motorcycles. This extra width is needed more for styling
than anything else.

Naive riders have come to the erroneous notion that motorcycles need a
really wide rear tire for more traction. But the truth is that rear
tires on race style motorcycles are larger because they can absorb a
lot more heat before they get greasy and lose traction.

Race bike engineers select the smallest front tire that will still
provide enough braking force. If they didn't have to use the front tire
to stop the motorcycle, they would put a
13 or 14 inch wheel up front to get the motorcycle to turn quickly.

Then there is the subject of handlebar "feel" and "neutral steering". A
motorcycle with the correct balance of front to rear traction and
weight distribution will feel responsive and stable at the same time.

A motorcycle with a chassis that is unbalanced in terms of front to
rear traction and weight distribution will do one of two things in a
turn. It will either try to "fall into the turn" or it will try to "run
wide" of the turn.

A motorcycle is poor handling when it does either of those
misbehaviors. A machine that falls into the turn will scare the rider
and he will have to put pressure on the outside handlebar to hold the
motorcycle upright.

The rider may push the outside handlebar so hard he heads toward the
outside of the turn, so he has to countersteer again, and his turn is
completed with a series of two, or even three steering
corrections.Riders on poor handling machines that try to fall into the
corner often find themselves on an exit line out of the corner that
positions them to be hit head on by approaching vehicles.

A motorcycle that tries to run wide of the corner requires the rider to
hold pressure on the inside handle bar to keep countersteering the
machine into a cornering attitude. It's really scary to ride a machine
that needs too much handlebar force to begin a turn. If the rider
misjudges the force and has to apply his brakes as well may find
himself crossing the centerline and getting hit head on by another
vehicle.

It should take no more than about 1 pound of force on the handlebars to
hold a motorcycle in the correct attitude to complete a turn. Any more
than 1 pound of force needed means the machine is poor handling.

I've been riding for 40 years and I don't think I could live with a
V-Max. It's too much of an ego machine.

A V-Max isn't a beginner's motorcycle. I recommend a smaller machine at
first, to learn how to handle a motorcycle. Kawasaki has been making
the venerable EX-250 baby Ninja and the EX-500 Ninja for many years.
Suzuki makes the GS-500 and the SV-650. Those are all better handling
inexpensive beginner machines so you can practice learning how to go
around turns safely before you get onto an ego machine that doesn't
handle well.

 

As someone else has said, if you don't even know what it *means* (never
mind not having experienced it first-hand, and you're thinking of buying
a V-Max.....

 

<snip the rest of a load of scientific cobblers>

Never mind all your guff about frame geometry and tyre size.

Might I add:

1. Inadequate frames, which flex under stress.

2. Inadequate wheels which do likewise.

3. Inadequate suspension which....

Oh, the list is endless.

There is far, far more to it than you've stated, even though you used
half of Usenet's bandwidth to do so.

I mean take this quote of yours:

"It should take no more than about 1 pound of force on the handlebars to
hold a motorcycle in the correct attitude to complete a turn. Any more
than 1 pound of force needed means the machine is poor handling."

Wtf are you on?

 

Lets see, ok.
Tires
suspension
Tracking
Center of gravity
Seat position
Fork geometry
Power to weight ratio
Frame geometry
Balance

To many things to list all, plus all can be broke down in to smaller
categories. But it not the reason, it's the feel the rider picks up from
the bike in general. If the bike doesn't perform or feel up to its category
( like sport or touring, etc...) or basic's of being a motorcycle. It can
be classed as poor handling. Or a piece of sh^^t. Remeber that one bike
may poor to a rider, and not to another. This takes to much time to point
out. With time in the saddle you will learn more and understand what is a
poor handling bike to you. And what is a poor handling bike altogether.
Hope this helps some.

Plus if you are new. Hes right, start with 500cc or smaller.
Good Luck.

 

As this is a free-for-all, I'll say a few words too.

Poor handling is when a bike does not ride as can be expected. The
problem might be for example that the owner bought the wrong
bike or could not afford a bike that is fit for purpose. A few bikes
might seem to ride well but has some nasty treat in specific
situations and will bite you (but a bit of internet searching should
reveal that). And of course the owner may not maintain the bike
and it will become a misbehaving pile of junk.

Naturally, the first and primary thing you need to do is to ride
the bike and evaluate it. If you're not qualified to do that, trust
someone who knows you do it, not an unknown internet writer
who might live on another planet.

As for the V-Max, it's a very special bike to consider if you
are real inexperienced. First, if in reasonable state, it should
be regarded an enthusiast (if not collectors) bike. Second,
it will be quite a handful and you will need a well handling
brain and be willing to invest some time in training to control
it.
OTOH, I think your internet sources and at least one posting
here are unfair to the V-Max. It is certainly not one of the
infamous ill-handlers. It is perfectly fit for purpose (a bit of
red light drag racing, mainly but definitely not solely) and
competent riders can do all sort of unlikely things on them.
Like racing nearly neck-and-neck with one of the two-stroke
race replica bikes of the same era around Nurburgring.

 

Here, Here

Since hes want's to jump to a V-Max, sound hes been reading to much bike
mags, etc.. They just to sell. They don't care if he has to be scraped
off the road. Start small 250 if you are in town or anything to a 500cc
other wise. Not a sport. Well maybe a 250 sport? Dont get ahead of
yourself.

 

Or even hear, hear.

Agree with both of you, anyway.

 

The 1 pound of force figure to hold the motorcycle in cornering
attitude has been published in the California motorcycle magazines by
professional riders.

California has miles and miles of strange things called "twisties" or
"curves" which you may not have noticed in England. As I recall, you
have to ride over to Wales or up to Scotland to find a real curve...

 

Not necessarily turning.

A 50 mph H-D straight-ahead tankslapper **wobble** comes to mind.

...'course, if you ask a dealer, the H-D wobble is non-existent.

B~

 

You've still spouted hundreds of words of almost unadulterated shite, in
that you've focused on one single aspect of handling and ignored
everything else. And I'd be very careful of believing what you read in
the press anyway.

"Before the Romans came to Rye, or out to Severn strode...."

Now, Google for the second line of that stanza and you'll see you're
talking even more nonsense.

And you'll have been introduced to the works of G K Chesterton, too.
Isn't Usenet a nice educational experience sometimes?

 

Heh. My old SOHC Honda CB750F1 used to do that, albeit at about 110. I
remember Avon's tyre technicians calling it the "Honda Wander", which
amused me at the time.

 

Actually I have ridden for 2-3 years, quitted, then started again. I bought
a cheap old Kawasaiki concours to practice riding heavy bike (so I won't
have to worry about weight when picking the "perfect" bike). Doing ok with
it so far, except afraid to start up steep hills. Also have a friend's
CB600F4i. My feeling about the concours is that it feels very stable once >
10 mph due to its mass, perhaps too stable. I think something lighter by 100
lbs would be better for me.

The reason I am interested in v-max is not because of the power or the ego.
I want an upright-riding bike with lower seat so I don't have to tip-toe
like on the concours, and I like a shaft drive for less maintenance, and v4
for less shaking. Unfortunately there is no such thing under 1000 cc except
20-year old magna.

I never paid attention or noticed whether the bike wants to oversteer or
understeer. Perhaps because I ride very non-aggressively. I took two MSF
courses and they never mentioned handling.

Although handling never was an issue for me, hence the ignorance, I would
like to learn about it. Are there any safe experiments I can do on my bikes
to further the education?

 

At least to me, you're not making sense. That could be because you
made the word "handling" into something "special" with deep and
secret meaning to motorcyclists.

To me, the handling of a bike could be explained like "taste" of
food. There are many aspects to it. Saying that it just concerns
cornering is like saying taste is only about salt. And saying that
you ride in a way that never raises the question of handling is
like saying that you found a way to eat where taste does not
matter.

 

One word:

"Inertia"

 

The other issue that was completely ignored in the (i'll admit, interesting)
dissertation is the body weight of the rider. I weigh about 225 (more with
my leathers on) and my Honda CB750 weighs 550, so when I'm going down the
road if the bike hits a road imperfection and wants to throw itself
around, it has to fight a lot of my inertia. I thus find it fairly easier
to
handle. I bought it from a guy who was a fair bit shorter, a lot younger,
and a lot thinner than me and when I asked him why he was selling it, he
said
he didn't like the handling. Well, duh!

Ted

 

Good point.

 

The "hundreds of words of almost unadulterated shite" weren't intended
to be debated by know-it-alls, they were intended to be educational for
the OP who admitted to knowing almost nothing about handling.

Chesterton seems to have spouted a lot of "shite" about drunkenness and
improbable nocturnal wanderings. I doubt if he drove from Brighton Pier
to Bannockburn in less than 3 or 4 days in the 1920's.

He wrote about country roads that rolled and rambled about England and
Scotland and other places I've been. Some of my ancient English
ancestors, like the Hickoks, were Will Shakespeare's neighbors. The
road through the Cotswolds on the way to Stratford on Avon reminded me
a bit of the apple orchards between Ramona and Julian, in California.
(1)

Country roads tend to follow rivers and hillsides and the rider finds
himself just having to zig and zag around trees and turn left and right
where farmers wouldn't allow the country roads to cross their planted
fields.

But the country lane rider never experiences the continuous cornering
forces in the turns where he really appreciates the chassis balance I
described previously.

There are saddles between mountaintops on the Angeles Crest Highway in
the San Gabriel mountains above Pasadena when you can take 250-foot
radius ess-curves at 61 mph and feel the machine trying to run wide or
fall into a turn as you experience a steady 1-g turn.

The amount of force exceeding one pound of pressure on the bars can
really be noticed when you are having to work to hold your machine in
the correct cornering attitude through a thousand turns one after
another on the way from the Shell station in La Canada to lunch at The
Yodelers in Wrightwood and back to the eyescrapers of Lost Angeles.

What you may not realize is that I actually know some of the magazine
writers.

And, some of the writers who contribute to the well known California
magazines are actually *mining* Usenet for inspiration for story ideas.
I frequently see articles about subjects that I have addressed on
Usenet postings.

Other times, the writers are just blowhards that I won't name, they
print their own misguided stories because they are editors and they
have the power to print their own
crap.

California has been a hot rodder's paradise for over 50 years and Good
Old Boy racers tend to share their speed secrets and suspension tuning
and handling theories with each other.

I used to pit with the editor of a certain sportbike magazine, when a
bunch of us racers were racing in the same club. He's the opposite type
of person from most, in that he doesn't like to share. He's far from a
Good Old Boy. That's what makes me wonder how he ever got to be a
motojournalist in the first place.

When I read his suspension and chassis troubleshooting guide in the
magazine, I wonder when he learned about all that stuff.

It really seems to have come from Race Tech's Paul Thede, but Thede is
not the originator of some of that material either, it's been leaked to
the public over decades, a tiny bit at a time.

(1) Imagine what the anticipation would be like if the Cotswolds were
merely the foothills of 10,000 foot snow capped mountains with alpine
passes you could ride through.

 

Do you really yhtink that we don't have good curvy roads in the UK?

What you may not realise is what I have done for a living for a quarter
of a century.

 

"Yhtink"? Chaucer died, update your English.

You probably do have roads in the UK that you think are wonderful.

If I told you about roads in the USA that make you scream inside your
helmet because you can't decide whether to stop and look at the view or
put your head behind the windscreen and try to beam yourself to the
horizon, you'd just get jealous.