Trident trubble

1993 Trident 900.

Hit the starter button this morning.... yurp-yurp-yurp-yurp-STOP.

Hit the starter button again. Click. Again. Click. Click click click.
Not a dickie-bird.

Relay's working then. Bugger! Sounds like the starter motor is f*cked.
The irony is that I had the bike serviced on Wednesday. I had noticed that
the starter seemed to be labouring more than usual over the last year, even
after I replaced the battery in January.

Anyone know what a new starter motor costs for a Trident 900? TOG? Unless
of course I can get it reconditioned (new brushes etc). Any
recommendations?

Poo. Good job it happened at home though.

 

When you say it was labouring, did it ever spin the engine a couple of
times then sort of stall with a clanking sound then spin again? If so
it's most likely the sprag clutch - a common failure on the early
triples.

Yours should have a rectangular inspection plate on top of the
crankcase below the carbs. If so, sprag replacement is simple - you can
do it through the hole under that plate. If you haven't got the plate,
you'll need to take the engine out & split the cases. Actually you may
have to do that anyway as the later sprags are a little larger & you'll
need to grind away some metal in the case to fit it.

A dealer will probably charge around £400 + parts. I don't know how
much the parts cost as when mine went I screamed at Triumph until they
agreed to cover the cost.

Hopefully it'll be the starter motor instead, but I've never heard of
one of those failing, at least not on a Tiger. Plenty of dead sprags
though...

 

Not so fast, grasshopper. If it's not the sprag clutch as described
by Krusty, it could be as simple as a bad earth. Personally, I'd
check the earth first (from engine/frame to battery).

 

Champ came up with the following;:

Bit like Landrovers .. Link the battery directly to the frame, then another
link from the frame to the engine ...

 

Thus spake Krusty unto the assembled multitudes:

No, I'm pretty sure it wasn't that. I had two sprag clutch failures (in
fairly quick succession) in 1998-9, at which they fitted me a new design
(had to machine the cases to fit it) and which has been fine ever since.
So I'm well used to the sound of a sprag clutch failing, and didn't hear
that sound this morning. The starter motor does not spin at all; there's
just a click from the relay.

That's what was done when I had the SC replaced in 1998.

That's what I did back then. I dare say they had lots of people screaming
at them! The bike had done less then 10K miles. Triumph covered the cost
of parts and I paid labour. Still cost a feckin arm and a leg though.

You're making me doubt myself, now... thanks for the tips anyway. Will do
some more checks over the weekend.

 

Thus spake Champ unto the assembled multitudes:

That's what I'll be trying out this weekend, time permitting. Thanks for
the tip. A mate of mine has given me some other pointers which I'll try
also, viz:

1. Bad or dirty contacts on the starter relay
2. Muck around the relay/starter causing it to earth a bit and lose juice
3. Duff relay (although unlikely as it had turned over)
4. Duff Starter Motor

 

<snip>

As others say, it sounds more like a duff connection from starter relay
to starter motor. Run a (stout) lead directly to the starter to by-pass
the relay. If it's still silent, then the brushes have probably gone,
yes. Not a big job.

 

"TOG@Toil "

Have you tried piggy-backing a charged car battery onto the bike with
jump leads?

I had a wild goose chase on the Land Rover over this during the last
twelvemonth. Was on the point of changing the starter. Had tried the
alternator, and loadsa wiring, before discovering an odd 'dead-cell'
problem with the (new) battery. It would charge apparently normally
(mains charger), but not hold its charge, losing it over a few days. The
on-load current, measured with a shorting ammeter, looked fine.

Symptoms per your bike - click, click. The Beemer (R80) also did the
same before I replaced its battery recently, but in that case the old
battery really was just knackered by age and use.

HTH,

Regards,

Simonm.

 

Thus spake SpamTrapSeeSig unto the assembled multitudes:

See below...

Thanks for the idea Simon - I'd already decided to give it a go in the
morning with a 'starter pack' with jump leads wot I bought a couple of
months back. I shall be pissed off (but relieved at the same time!) if it
does turn out to be a duff battery (it's only three months old), but at
least the dealer is only a few miles away. Hmmm, hope I've still got the
receipt...

 

This was what put me off the scent - the Landy battery was faulty from
new, but weirdly - appeared to charge normally, and the short-circuit
current when charged was just what you'd expect, but it leaked to flat
over about two days. Had no trouble at all since I swapped it out - the
battery dealer had got new test kit in the intervening time, which found
the fault.

When loaded to about 50% of cranking amps, you could watch the voltage
drop off over a 2 min period (the tester has massive heatsinks!). Full
cranking load disguised this. I still don't know what the actual fault
was.

Regards,

Simonm.

 

Latest news just in:

First I push-started the bike without a problem this morning, but still
nothing but a relay click when I hit the starter button afterwards.

I then did as TOG suggested and ran a direct feed from the battery to the
starter motor. Bingo, it turned (and so did the engine).

So, the starter motor and sprag clutch are apparently OK (phew). Meter
tests on the clutch and neutral switches were OK also, so it's looking like
a dodgy connection from the relay or a bad earth. Looks a bit fiddly to
get at and I've run out of time for this weekend, but at least I think I
know what to look at next. It just seems odd that the feed from the relay
is completely dead.

Thanks to all for tips so far...any more welcome.

 

Did you run the feed on the + side only or also on the earth side? That
should give you an idea which of the two is duff...

 

The message <>

Before that I would try clouting the starter relay with a hammer.
I had problems with an intermittently sticky one that just seemed to get
in the wrong position and jam.
Does not look very professional but so nice when that is all it takes
and the good clout gets rid of a lot of frustration. <grin>

Good luck, John.

 

Thus spake Timo Geusch unto the assembled multitudes:

Non comprende, senor. Only one feed to the starter as far as I could see,
and I fed that from the + terminal on the battery (but only very briefly).
But see other happy followup anyway.

 

Thus spake my good self unto the assembled multitudes:

I lied. I was keen to try sorting it and managed to find time after all.
And it wasn't as fiddly as I first thought

 

Thus spake John Colloff unto the assembled multitudes:

Funny you should have suggested that. A mate who is a former Navy pilot
told me this:

"Yes it sounds as though you've done everything to eliminate the battery
(although worth checking, as you say). I now recall another similar problem
with trying to start Jetstream Aircraft (!). Sometimes the starter just
wouldn't turn over. It's slightly different, in that it has to spin up a
jet turbine rather than a clunky old 4-stroke internal combustion engine,
however, the principle is the same, in that it uses a relay to energise the
starter itself. When it wouldn't start I would make a radio call to ATC who
would then relay the message to the engineers, who would send out the
supervisor to sort it out. He would arrive with just one tool - a hammer!
With it he would bash the starter relay, and invariably that would solve the
problem. Again, this could be worth checking as it is relatively simple,
before you have to start mucking about cleaning brushes etc."

 

John Colloff came up with the following;:

Feckin' 'ell ... it's sounding more like a Landrover every day ...

 

OTH I have had two starters fail on my current car, and as for the
Simca I was stupid enough to own.

Ken Young

Maternity is a matter of fact
Paternity is a matter of opinion