Thoughts about chatter

I do not give a damn about the riders' personalities. May the best one win.
The only thing that bugs me is when some of the best ones jeopardize their
careers unnecessarily and might deprive MotoGP with their absence. As I
state elsewhere, I think it'd be a shame if Edwards doesn't get a competitve
ride in '05, so your argument about me not liking him or something is
idiotic.

Only someone with a limited understanding of team dynamics would make such a
childish assertion. People who play the game are motivated by different
things, but as a rule they would not play games if they were not interested
in results and achieving objectives, and will carefully evaluate how to
fight for their cause. Confrontation is sometimes inevitable, but in most
cases in any team or negotaition the smart strategy is try to arrive at a
win-win, a ultimately winning compromise for everybody involved.

You can safely eliminate Roberts out of that equation these days, since he
indeed seems to be there to turn laps and collect a paycheck. But that is a
different discussion. The matter of the fact is that not capitalizing on the
upside of finishing fourth this year is a losing strategy, since it might
well set someone up to perform worse or not at all next year. Which is about
the worst losing strategy conceivable. Go on, lead with your king in chess.

Read again slowly. Perhaps then it will sink in. First of all, it's idiotic
to claim the concept of a "team player" is corporate speak. The term comes
from team sports, in case you forgot. It simply is a basic social fact that
for teams to be more than the sum of the individuals, team player qualities
(recognition, etc) are required. A sum of individuals just looking out for
their very own good will never perform well.

Second of all, I am the one pointing out the fact that it is deplorable that
Edwards, finishing fourth, seems to have a question mark behind his name as
far as '05 is concerned. But if Honda and his own team are alienated by his
attitude -and I hope they're not, as I stated before-, results or not
they'll get someone else. Edwards results have been very good, but not
phenomenal, and the team nanager might think a 4th place finisher
replaceable if he's got the runner up in the stable anyhow. I am not saying
I approve of it, but on the other hand I do understand. There are other guys
that have shown flashes of brilliance, inside and outsde of MotoGP, and it'd
be interesting to see what they'd do on a Honda. MotoGP needs some new
blood. Edwards could be a quality mainstay, but as of now he's been to The
Honda-Oracle and has not been seen an being The One to beat the Rossi
Matrix, either. It basically seems no one in MotoGP right now is. But that
again is a topic for another discussion.

....pablo

 

What else was he supposed to do? Stay with Aprilia or take a chance on the
rcv, that's a no brainer. He was bitching about chatter long before Brno,
everyone thought it was the 'lins at the time. However, you may have a point
about the crew. They're the last guys you rag on. I still think he might be
trying to line up a ride with Yamaha next year and a #4 spot in the points
chase just might do it.
T3

 

Yeah, corporate types are pretty good at projecting their incompetence
onto those who work for them...

Nah, I'll leave the ISO9001 to you corporate types...

Well, if you spent less time grabbing ankles and more time actually
working on the problems, you may realize that the satellite teams test
parts handed to them to prepare for the next race. Whether Honda uses
any of their feedback is really up to Honda. So, the satellite teams
are probably testing for themselves and not necessarily for Honda.
And, if Honda doesn't give you new parts to test, what do you do? Grab
ankles?

Keep grabbing those ankles...

If Michelin has found someone as competent as Edwards, it would not
surprise me if Michelin decides not to support Edwards any more. HRC
offered the RCV on Bridgestone ride to Edwards as a consolation prize.
Michelin was not keen on losing their best tire tester.

Yes, corporate types would know how to suck French cock to keep the
frog management happy. But, in the end, the rank and file engineers
still need someone like Edwards to help them get through their day.
While Edwards may scare corporate types, I'd be willing to be
he's well respected by the day-to-day engineers that he worked with
during his superbike days, some of whom may be working on the RCV.

If it was up to the rank and file, Edwards may have very well been
Rossi's teammate last year and gone on to develop the RCV this year.
But, as you well know, it's the corporate types who get to make such
decisions. While the corporate types don't like to hear things
that people like Rossi or Edwards has to say, it doesn't make it
invalid. And, as you pointed out, someone willing to grab his ankles
may have the last laugh.

So, is this whole exercise about developing a race winning bike or about
"playing the game?" If it's about developing a race winning bike, do
the "logical" thing and go with the guy who has a proven track record.
Of the six current Honda riders, who has actually had experience developing
a bike at the world level? Perhaps HRC wants us to believe it was Tady Okada
that develop the RC51? But, if it's about playing the corporate game, then
don't be surprised when your best rider leaves the team and continues to win
with your rival's "inferior" bike. And, don't be surprised when your most
competent development rider isn't afraid to tell you the development
direction of the bike is wrong.

In the end, corporate types like to have it both ways. That is, they
want to be able to make the bad decisions and not suffer the
consequences. When they are told things they don't want to hear, the
messanger is labeled as "not a team player." Sound familiar? Keep grabbing
those ankles... right to the top!

 

What you want is a conforming Edwards. One that conforms to the
corporate speak from which you are well versed. That's not going to
happen from someone like Edwards. I don't think he particularly cares
at this point of his candor "jeopardizes" his career.

You are rather naive... you are correct that people are motivated by
different things. Which means different people will have differing
versions of the outcome. Which means, "win-win" is not clearly defined.
And, who WINS and who only wins depends on how big of a corporate
johnson that person has. And, what does "winning" mean if the outcome
is not clearly defined? In the end, one will choose that which is
beneficial to himself.

For someone like Edwards, I don't think he cares that much. Having a
conforming Edwards would be like having a Carlos Checa. Could Edwards'
have a better standing with Honda if he was more like Nicky? Yes. But,
that's why we have Nicky.

Says the corporate type. Other corporate code: responsibility,
accountablility, etc... If Edwards conforms to Honda's corporate
vision, whose good is he looking out for?

But, that is exactly the MotoGP/corporate politics that you are
entwined in. That is the politics that someone like Edwards will not
play an active roll in. I'm sure Edwards would be the first to admit
that his candor has not helped his career, but at the same time, he's
not going to change. Fans of Edwards embrace him because of this. I
think Edwards himself has said he doesn't like getting his knees dirty.
Honda doesn't like to hear it and may punish him for it, but, by damn,
he's going to say it. And, that's what's confounding someone like you.
Corporate types can't imagine saying something that's true if it would
endanger their political position.

In the end, the Michelin and Honda engineers that he's worked with
probably like him for it. He tells them without the bullshit what's
working and what's not working so they as a "team" can converge quickly
to a solution. Or, does the concept of "team" only work as defined by
the corporate types?

Hey, corporate types! Engineers, remember, them? The guys and gals who
DO THE FRIGGIN' WORK? The ones you'll betray for your vision of "win-win"?
Team player, huh?

 

I am an engineer, fool. Come back to reality, you might start to make some
sense. Your tirade was bizarre.

....pablo

 

Enuff said, it's time to change the heading

 

Colin alluded to it without actually saying it in this article:

http://www.ceracing.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=53328
&highlight=abrams&sid=bdeca4a827ac39205a11d61f642c926b#53328

"Michelin is the key to the Honda-Yamaha equation. The dominant French tire
company brought a wider tire with a different profile to the first
Australasian tests and another one to the first race at Welkom, in South
Africa. The tire was invented for the eminently adaptable Yamaha.

"'Yamaha fixed the bike, which they can; they can move rake, trail, pivot,
engine. You name it, they can change it.' Edwards says."

"'The big tire doesn’t turn on the same radius on our bike.' He said. 'The
way it’s set up, it’s set up for the other tire. The contact patch is
moved. So it doesn’t turn on the same radius as the front. So it’s just a
geometry thing. You have to figure out how to get the front and rear
turning on the same arc.

"'We had everything working perfect, and now they’ve come up with something
that’s got more side grip. That was the S-4 – more side grip, but you can’t
f&#%ing use it.'"


---------------------------------------------------------------------------
------ Full article posted by Colin Edwards, Sr. on www.ceracing.com ------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------



....Titled "Midseason Report Card" By Henny Ray Abrams

....Credit to "Cycle News and Henny"

Colin Edwards settled into the couch in his motor home, a wad of snuff in
his lower lip, the disappointment of an unfulfilling season beginning to
show. “Not happy, not happy at all,” he said about his finish in the Grand
Prix of Catalunya, his best of the year.

Qualifying on the fourth row meant starting with a deficit that was
difficult to erase. Qualifying isn’t his strong suit. It goes against all
his natural instincts.

“You’re out there all weekend on stuff, sliding and spinning. Then they say
‘Now you can pin it,’” he said, shaking his head about qualifying strategy
on super-sticky one-lap specials. “You just have to trust your life and
your balls with it. It’s just not nice.”

Once in the race he moved from one scrum to another, the riders improving
as he slowly moved forward. He came up on old friends Troy Bayliss and
Ruben Xaus. In vivid, indelible detail, he described the crash of Bayliss
that miraculously didn’t take out Xaus. “You could do it nine million more
times, and it wouldn’t happen.”

The crash gifted him a spot, and he got another later that lap.

Attrition took out Nicky Hayden and Alex Barros and Makoto Tarmada and
Kenny Roberts Jr., and Max Biaggi had a defective tire. And in time Edwards
found himself in fifth place, his best of the year but as empty as any of
his lesser placings.

He wasn’t quite through discussing the race when he paused and asked if I
had time, if I’d like to know how he came to this place. I said I did, then
he spit out a plug of snuff large enough to choke a schnauzer and explained
why Honda doesn’t look like Honda this year.

Sete Gibernau, Edwards’ teammate, makes the same point as Edwards but in
different language. He explains that the Yamahas had traction at Catalunya
and the Hondas didn’t. That the Honda had to run a harder tire.

“And that for sure has been the clue of the whole race.” said Gibernau. the
Spanish MotoGP World Championship leader. “You can see at the end of the
race that the Yamahas are not so bad. I’m surrounded by Yamahas. And right
now I think together with Honda we need to start working very hard to bring
up the pace because we have good power on the bide, but Yamaha has done an
unbelievable job.”

It began in preseason testing. In Malaysia and Australia the Repsol riders,
Hayden and Barros, were the only ones with the new RC-211V, the new
chassis, new swingarm, new linkage. And for one lap it was incredible.
Hayden set the fastest time in Malaysia. But Edwards noticed something. He
noticed that after 10 to 12 laps on a race tire, Hayden was a second,
second, and a half slower than the Telefonica Hondas. And he knew in due
time that the parts would filter down to the satellite teams, and he wasn’t
sure that was a good thing.

On the older machinery, Edwards went to Australia and ran quick laps, one
after another, the last lap not much different from the first. There were
fast honors days, Edwards saw in Australia what he’d seen in Malaysia;
after 24 laps the Repsol riders were struggling.

No current GP rider knows more about tires than Colin Edwards. As the
favored son of Michelin, he’s put more time into tire development than any
other rider. The S-4 Michelin that the GP world first saw in 2002 Edwards
was developing in 1998.

What Edwards noticed in Malaysia and Australia was that the Honda was
putting too much force into the rear tire and that when it got old, it
couldn’t handle it.

Testing moved to Barcelona, and now most everyone had most of the 2004
machinery. The weather was dodgy, and the teams didn’t get the full measure
of the newest and best. Even so, Edwards saw that the 2003 bike may not
have been fast for one fast lap, but it was friendlier on tires. The 2004
machine was abusive to tires.

“The difference on our bike when the tires are good to when the tires are
bad is two seconds, easy two seconds. If not more,” Edwards said. “And
that’s not right. Understand a tire goes off a bit and half a second or a
second, but this is just so big.”

What went right at Yamaha, and want went wrong at Honda? Edwards has a
theory.

“Everything that’s done to that Yamaha is from Valentino (Rossi),” he says.
“As for the RC-211V, at the moment, we’re not exactly sure who it’s from-
from Honda, from (Alex) Barros or Nicky (Hayden). It’s from one of them
two, but we’re not real sure where it’s coming from. What we do know is
that it’s not changing. And maybe for that reason, it needs to be changed.”

Hayden would be the first to admit that he doesn’t have the experience to
develop a Grand Prix machine. Barrow might not admit it, but he’s been
around along time and has never won a title, and that certainly says
something about his development and communication abilities. Hayden doesn’t
deny that he needs to refine his throttle control.

“Definitely it’s hard to get the power down smooth.” He said. “That’s
always been one of my deals, sometimes I’m too aggressive on the throttle.”

Aggression on the Honda isn’t rewarded, it’s punished. “You’d be amazed how
easy the thing would spin up if you really wanted to,” Hayden said.

Michelin is the key to the Honda-Yamaha equation. The dominant French tire
company brought a wider tire with a different profile to the first
Australasian tests and another one to the first race at Welkom, in South
Africa. The tire was invented for the eminently adaptable Yamaha.

“Yamaha fixed the bike, which they can; they can move rake, trail, pivot,
engine. You name it, they can change it.” Edwards says.

“The times wouldn’t be as fast as what we have now, but we all would’ve
been in the same boat.” Edwards said. Instead there was a snowball effect.
All of the date that Honda had collected prior to the big tire was
worthless.

“Everything before the first race, wad it up and throw it away. It’s all
small-tire stuff.” He said.

Edwards might have had a different start to the year but for Michelin’s
decision not to race the older, smaller tires at all.

“The big tire doesn’t turn on the same radius on our bike.” He said. “The
way it’s set up, it’s set up for the other tire. The contact patch is
moved. So it doesn’t turn on the same radius as the front. So it’s just a
geometry thing. You have to figure out how to get the front and rear
turning on the same arc.

“We had everything working perfect, and now they’ve come up with something
that’s got more side grip. That was the S-4 – more side grip, but you can’t
f&#%ing use it.”

Hayden’s reaction was the polar opposite of Edwards’.

“The fat tire was a lot better for me, just a lot more grip.” He said. ‘I
can’t say it helped me because it just helped everybody. It’s not that big
a difference. When we first tried it, some people didn’t like it. Straight
away I liked it better. It’s not so different, really. For me, that new
tire just improved grip, improved a lot.”

The fix for Edwards was a smaller rim, the 6.00 – down from 6.25 inches.
Edwards knew that the big tire was pushing the front. It wouldn’t turn, and
it chattered. The smaller rim was a new lease on life. The contact patch is
decreased; the bike turns.

“I’m seeing the back side of the curb that I hadn’t seen in four races.”
Edwards said. “The biggest mistake is, I couldn’t get to the apex of the
corner, so then what do you do? You turn it early. All that does is push it
more because you’re on that bigger part earlier. So I’m out there trying to
figure this shit out while racing – a lot’s going on. Come this morning
(Sunday morning at Catalunya) with the decreased contact patch, I’m like
‘Damn, the front is great; this is awesome. Everything feels awesome.”

Edwards said the size of the rim doesn’t matter as much as what it does.
The downside is that what you gain from being able to turn, you lose in
acceleration because you don’t have the contact patch.

“What works for me, as a rider, I need the front confidence,” he said.
“Either you get traction and you have no confidence in the front, or you
have front confidence and no traction. I’ll take the front any day of the
week.”

When will Honda make a change? Some think it will come at the Czech Grand
Prix at Brno after the summer break. Rossi’s bike dramatically improved at
last year’s Brno race, though it was only the engine.

“Honda had never been great at chassis” Edwards said. “We know that from
years and years past. They hit this one right because of Valentino. Now
they don’t have Valentino, now they have to choose. In my opinion, Sete’s
(Gibernau) at the top of the championship. Sete, if he wants the burden, he
needs to fix it, and that’s just the way it is – because the bike is not
right. You’re constantly battling yourself against the bike, holding the
chatter or trying to weight it or not weight. You’re managing time. You’re
not going fast; you’re not flat out. You’re managing chatter time and
traction time, and you’re trying to put it all together. That’s not how
you’re supposed to race.” CN
_________________
A Man Who Drinks, Never Knows What Its Like To Feel Well In The Morning. -
Snr.

 

Ah, you mean the race where he crached out? No that doesn't count.

Or Criville before Rossi?

Not really, but having the _right_ guy and the right team for development is
the proven way.

Anyway, I get you're point but, like it or not, loyalty is important to
theese Asian guys, and Edwards don't show to much loyality in his soap box
speaches. Don't get me wrong. To me he sounds more like a brit or aussi than
an american and I like his outspoken way and hope he will renew his contract
in a top team. Maybe as others suggested as an interesting option, in
Yamaha. Rossi and Edwards would be a greate team.

Aha, but in a way he is, isn't he? just that he's not very typical American
dumb ass. He's not ignorant or plain stupid, more like the british dumb ass
I'd say. ;-)
And that's what we like him for.

/MBE

 

There was also the description of creating new triple clamps with more
offset for Donington. In that interview, Edwards said there was no
changes possible to swingarm pivot, or rake. Which leaves a little
control over wheelbase but that's dependent on final gearing and chain
length. So there's really no adjustability of basic geometry at all. But
of course, there's still loads of control over suspension and hence also
ride height and attitude.

 

Edwards has complained about chatter all year. But it wasn't until
after Brno that he publically asked for the new spec chassis, which is
suppose to have helped the chatter problem.

 

Yeah, I've read Edwards' comments. I interpreted it to mean that the
Honda is just less adjustable than the Yamaha. I don't think that
necessarily means "no adjustibility." Plus, he's not the only Honda
rider not happy with the direction of the RCV development.

 

Edwards' father is Australian.

 

Aw... is that what your business card says? Win-win... team player...
haha... you're killing me with all that engineering terminology.

 

Honda obviously went into the year with some complacency, thinking their
bike was so superior that they didn't need to bother with an overall
strategy to win the title. Just give enough people enough godd stuff, and if
they're good riders, riding the phenomenally superior bike would lead to the
desired title. Or so they thought.

Honda obviously has not responded well to the situation. Inertia rules large
companies, and they stick to the existing process (Repsol HRC is our primary
team, never mind it was evident early on they'd never be contenders for the
title), move too slowly, and abhor too much change.

I think they have basically written off the title for this year, and are
already working on the '05 season. For '04 they'll leave things as is,
seemingly conscious they messed up and aware their response time is too
long to fix much here and now. We'll see.

Ukawa might be more about a live test with far more radical engineering
changes as an early engineering field trial to see if they're headed the
right direction. I assume tye other riders will get to ride whatever Ukawa
has some and provide their opinion, but given the fact the top riders still
probably see something at stage for them and are thinking '04 horizon,
they'd be unwilling to spent much time sorting out a prototype they won't be
able to race right away anyhow.

If Ukawa wins, it allows everybody to see very early on that next year's
title is a shoe-in for Honda. But it is very doubtful a prototype can win
things this early on, at least I'd be very surprised.

....pablo

 

Well, yeah. But probably, rather than expecting Ukawa to win on the
potential '05 prototype, what they are doing is merely sending Ukawa out,
while turning on the pressure on the top Honda riders. As in telling Barros
and Hayden during a briefing "well guys, we're rethinking our options for
next year, but winning this one would go a loooong way in securing a top
ride in '05, get the hint?" while giving them yet another badge of magic new
pats and telling the tire supplier I might reconsider OEM options unless
they crank up the heat and get me something good. If the win is impotant
here, I think you'd yturn the heat up on the regulars, it'd be more
effective.

It'll be intersting to see, if a Honda rider wins this, where said rider is
in '05.

....pablo