Thoughts about chatter

I don't think the two have ridden the same bike since preseason testing.
Plus, if Edwards was just bitching, Michelin would have dropped him a long
time ago.

 

And why don't you think they ride the same bike? BTW, who said that Edwards
will be where he is now next year?

 

What a Eurocentric response. You buy into the the line that all Hondas are
equal?
Giberneau is an Iberian on an Iberian team.
You think when the latest trick bits come from Honda, that they get bolted
to the American's bike?
Colin is at the end of the line on development pieces. And with winter
testing being so wet, he didn't get the right direction on where he should
be going until late.
There is a certain pecking order. Always has been.
HRC doles out the improved parts, not flooding all the teams at once. They
are big, but not that big....

 

Why is it a Eurocentric response? Just because it doesn't coincide with
your US point of view? Ah, okay.......

So you think that Edwards didn't know about the situation before he
signed the dotted-line? He should get rid of his lawyer.

 

Think Edwards has been telling tales about chatter all year? Little thing
called telemetry now-a-days
Rider input is confirmed or disproven by the computer. The 2004 Hondas have
been lacking all year in the handling dept.
Colin went so far as to try and stay with the better handling 2003 chassis
until he realised that package would get zero development. It would be
slower and slower as the season went on.So he bit the bullet and went back
to the 2004.
The one race they dialed the chatter out ( Donington) he was second. But it
was back at Brno.
He has some valid complaints about the lack of adjustibility on the Honda.
When you're in a group where 1st to tenth is less than one second, being
close gets you nowhere. And when you've been a winner, finishing down the
order sucks. So Colin complains...
Racer deal. Or you think being a good loser is the "sporting thing"?

out the way you hope. Wishful thinking is part of the game. All the lawyer
can do is make sure you aren't getting screwed financially on the deal
After spending a year on the Aprilia's, a "B" level Honda and no Rossi looks
pretty damn good. At least until the third or fourth race comes along and
you realise that there's equal and more equal in Hondaland, and you aren't
on the right side of the fence...

 

Oddly, other Honda riders have proven more adept at limiting the chatter
issue (which inceidentally affects all GP bikes to some degree).

Oh, so he made a wrong decision, and did not contribute towards new chassis
development at a critical time for the team, preferring to go on his own
way? And then he complains about not getting the occasional new chassis
part? Looks to me that he got what he deserved, literally, in that case. If
*I* was in Honda engineering, and one of the top riders would refuse to work
on the new chassis, yes, I'd line him up pretty down far the hierarchy when
it came time to hand down the enhanced parts, and would first hand them to
the guys that actually contributed to the development. The fact this
argument is made like this without the originators being aware of its
fallacy is amusing.

As has been stated repeatedly, the Honda does offer adustability, and
Edwards claim that there was *no* adjustability was wrong. So much for the
accuracy of his "candid" remarks. Whether its sufficient adjustability, or
whether more adjustability would solve the chatter problem is a different
thing altogether. Again, others seem to be able to ride around the problem
more effectively. Edrwards is in control of his destiny to a certain degree
there, and just does not seem to be able to consistently find a satisfying
recipe as often as other Honda rider he can be compared against - which is
only Biaggi and Gibernau. Edwards has proven more or just as deserving as
anyone else other than that on the Honda rooster.

Nothing to do with sporting, but rather with being a spokesperson for a top
Japanese manufacturer. Not giving any credit to the engineering prowess of
the mothership is slow but sure career harakiri. It's happened so often in
racing history that it truly takes thick-headed morons to continue to ignore
it. Biaggi and Edrwards continue to qualify, even if Biaggi has been humbled
and tamed enormously compared to a few years ago.

It *is* about the 4th or 5th best ride to be had on the MotoGP rooster. Not
so shabby. Edwards better be aware many other would kill for his spot. If he
wants to be number one at Ducati or Aprilia or Suzuki or WCM or Proton,
fine. But he'll never fulfill the potential he has there.

....pablo

 

Yeah but he's got it worse than the other guys for some odd reason. Perhaps
it it's riding style. But it's there to a greater degree than the 03 bikes
exhibited

Riders at that level get paid to win races, not fix engineering mistakes.
Colin went for the quick and easy. The 2003 bike was a known quanity and the
2004 wasn't right.And they got the bikes so late, it was going to take a
while to get them sorted,
Engineering is about admitting things are wrong and fixing them. Val spent
all of his first year undoing the errors Honda made in the development of
the NSR post Doohan. Getting on the soapbox and saying the riders are fools
is an old Honda trick.
Being the # 2 guy on a sattelite team, you take bigger risks on what you
ride. The 2004 Honda IS faster than the 2003 but then again so is everybody
else.
The 2003 Ducatis aren't podium bikes are they?

Lack and absence are two different words Never said "no" as you imply Race
engineering is about finding the compromises that make the package work.
With what he has, there hasn't been the room to adjust it the way he wants.

I think less than you think. Being vocal is a bad move if you can't "walk
the walk"
Understand the concept of being a good soldier, but engineering at times
needs to hear "no"
And from what I hear, even Gibernau has piped up about the way Honda's
2003/4 development program went.
Val's career didn't go backwards after he dissed Honda.
Bikes aren't cars. Rider input as critical as engineering. It's not a video
game...

At 28 just how long do you think Colin is willing to wait? His focus is now,
not next year. 2nd is first loser. And if you fail to understand, watch the
2nd leg of the 2002 WSB finale. Illustrates the mind set

 

If you believe that all six Honda riders are on equal equipment, then
you should be helping Dubya look for the WMD in Iraq. Would you also
be interested in a bridge in Brooklyn?

FYI, I think Edwards represents himself. Regardless of what's going on
at Honda, he's better off now than he would be had he stayed with
Aprilia.

 

Edwards complaint today is that there has been a new chassis since the
beginning of the season and he can't get one. It's a shame that frames
are rather harder to break than engines, or he could just lunch his two
bikes and then they'd have to give him one.

Which then raises the question again of how this all works. Those bikes
are built up almost from scratch during the week. And how long does it
take Honda to churn out another copy of a frame and swingarm? Did the
guy who does the welding take a long summer holiday? Or did Honda shift
the whole frame group to the Civic production line? Or maybe the new
frame-swingarm requires a new rear shock and Showa have run out of shock
bodies. Perhaps more likely is that the Telefonica team asked for
another new frame and Honda said "no, b*gger off, we don't feel like it,
ask me again next week. Not unless you can prove you can beat Rossi
without beating Barros and Hayden. We're very sorry but it is not
possible at this time as we've given all our spare frames to Shinichi
Ito to test and he's a company employee with a wife that works in the
accounts department. And anyway you may have a Honda ride but we still
don't like you after what you said two years ago." Or something.

 

I'm sure that's what Max, Collin, Alex, and Carlos says, but others seems to
have grater success with a different recipie. There are few wgineering
mistakes out there, but even fewer riders that are able to maximize the
performance with what they've got.

/MBE

 

As far as I know the repsol team still get the new parts wich means Hayden
should get the "latest trick bits". I don't think he has switched
nationality yet? Not that it seems to help him that much, but all the same,
he gets them. Is that also the Eurocentric?
I think Paplo has a good argument about Edwards using the '03 bike. He
didn't contribute. A big sin in Japan.

You really need to be an american to even think there is such a thing as
Eurocentric. Europeans don't cheer each others. If it's not a national rider
he can just as well be a from the other side of the world. Look at WSB, the
two most popular characters there are Haga and Chili.

Another story is what the teams and sponsors do. They have national
considerations to take into account, but don't put their arguments into the
moth of those that just follow the sport.

/MBE

 

So what, then, of Sete rejecting the new engine for two races in a row now?
Do Honda abandon him, too? Hardly seems likely since he's the only Honda
with a realistic chance at the title.

Just because a thing is new doesn't mean it's better or that it will work
equally as well for everyone. Honda have not usually demonstrated as great
an understanding of this concept as they probably should, be it from
politics, bull-headedness or whatever.

-Chris-

 

Tongue and cheek, for sure but more than likely an accurate representation
of the process. Except for the Civic part, if they made them there be a
couple hundred thousand available! Colin bit the hand that feeds, factory
sponsorship won't always guarantee wins, it can however, damn near guarantee
loses. It's obvious he's still bitter about Hayden using HRC/US to gain the
Repsol ride, he needs to get over it. Or maybe he's trying to position
himself for the #2, 3 or 4 Yamaha ride next year, only he knows, or not. It
just a shame a guy with the talent he demonstrated in WSB/AMA 250GP has
allowed circumstances to overtake him, for whatever reason....
Regards,
T3

 

pablo wrote:

[SNIP A LOT OF THOUGHTFUL STUFF]

I gotta say I agree with just about all you said, especially that Edwards may
very well have shot himself in the foot by using the straight forward and
honest language that most endears him to his fans and separates him from the
traditional corporate mouthpiece. It's unfortuante that a rider almost can't
"say it like it is" and still be politically correct from the corporate
perspective.

As for your comments regarding Sete, I hadn't thought about it from the
perspective that, while he hasn't used the new motor, he hasn't derided it as
worse than the old motor. He's just said that he didn't want to change what
was working for him this season up until now.

-Chris-

 

The current pecking order seems to be Barros. Hayden, Gibernanu, Biaggi,
Tamada and Edwards
As for not helping much, I guess running with the leaders at Brno doesn't
count eh?
Barros and Hayden threw it away late or they might have ended up on the
podium insted of Val and Max. No one else was even close
And contributing? Colin is one of six guys on Hondas. Listening to six guys
brings to mind the old joke about a camel being a horse designed by
comittee,
Development works best when one guy is dominant. like Doohan or Rossi were
at Honda. That had been a problem at Yamaha until Rossi joined the team

No the term was used in the meaning of slagging Edwards just because he's an
American and doesn't play the game the way it's played in Japan
"Just another typical dumb Yank"
If we're so dumb, how'd we get to the moon?
Parochial might have been better term to use

 

If Edwards was still bitter, why go back and ride a Honda? IIRC,
Edwards signed last year partly because Honda claimed to be ready to
supply six equal RCV to beat Rossi. The first you heard Edwards
complain about the chassis that he's been using all year was after Brno.
I'm sure people in the paddock know who's riding what.

 

Or the other riders have better crew...

Wow, if you were a Honda engineer? Somehow that doesn't lend any
credibility to your fantasy above. Hayden and Barros were doing all the
meaningful preseason development. They are the factory team. Gresini
is a satellite team. They use the equipment handed to them. Notice
Biaggi and Giberneau were both begging to be Honda's development rider.

If you were a Honda engineer? Where, when, and in what context did Edwards
say that there was "no adjustibility"? IIRC, he, Sete, and Max did not
agree with the development direction that the Repsol riders were taking
the RCV.

Apparently, he's still #1 for Michelin...

 

Seriously, I have a bridge in Brooklyn for sale... Just because he is on
one of the Hondas doesn't mean he is being asked to contribute. Edwards
is probably in the "ride what you're given" status.

 

Yep, you're well versed in the ways of corporate politics, which is
probably why someone like Edwards doesn't fit your mold.

People who know how to play "the game" will settle... compromise, if you
will. For someone like Edwards at this level of racing, he's not out there
risking his health to settle for fourth. Ukawa or Tamada may be, but riders
with the mentality like Edwards, Rossi, Roberts, etc. are not out there to
turn laps.

Wait, you say he's bringing in good results, yet his career is taking a
spin downwards? "Team players"... that's corporate code speak.

If Edwards had hurt his relationship with Honda, why would Honda have
allowed Gresini to sign him to begin with? Edwards has been
"complaining" since his world championship superbike days. Honda didn't
send him the go-fast parts until after Suzuka in 2002.

The reality of the matter may be Edwards is simply working with a less
capable crew. And, I'm sure he's smart enough not to rag on his crew,
even if it's more their fault than Honda's.

 

Since several others agree with the logic of the reasoning irrespective of
my actual employment, you fail rethoric class. The tool is called "pathos",
projecting oneself into someone else's thoughts and emotions. It's done
often. For those lacking fantasy, I can rephrase it to read: ".. If one of
the top riders refuses to work on a new chassis, yes, he is very likely to
line himself up pretty down far the hierarchy when it comes time to hand
down enhanced parts, since they ought to be first given to the guys that
originally contribute to the development."

Yeah, and they are supposed to provide feedback on it. It's part of nay
quality process. Read up on ISO 9001.

What do they testing for? You think their methodology is merely to test new
parts, keep what they like and merely send back what they don't, and never
provide input on what they ride? You have it all figured out...

Dude, don't drink and write. The above results from the Edwards interview,
and can be followed in that discussion thread.

Yeah, and much good they'll do him if he has to put that Michelin rubber on
his kid's tricycle come '05.

....pablo