There's a surprise...

What's wrong with 15 year olds racing 125's or the like? Do you just
not like seeing how riders are developed? I may not follow 125's and
250's the same as I do MotoGP, but I still enjoy watching them as well
as the Red Bull Rookies Cup. Where's the problem?

The issue of AMA not allowing anyone under 16 to race is not FIM's or
Dorna's fault, now, is it? We have a major problem with insurance
companies and racing, which is the cause of such constraints in North
America (Canada is in the same boat). I don't know how event
insurance is handled in Europe, but somehow they're able to have 15
year olds racing on a pro circuit and we can't.

 

Well, yes. But what (or who) has shaped that technology, what were the
"riider aid" requirements, who required those? Are you saying if the
support classes had been SB and SS instead of 125 and 250 all along
and that's mostly where the riders came from, that the MGP bikes would
have turned out the same? When you think of a blank sheet of paper and
a bike that is a four cylinders, is four stroke, weighs 340 pounds,
makes 200+ horsepower, do you think high lean and high corner speed,
do you think Super250?

 

Yes, yes I do, should the rules permit the necessary tech. If you
hang out around people trying to set up a track bike, you'll realize
that the ideal motorcycle is such that can be ridden flat out the
whole time. Any deviation from that is a compromise. So if you have
technology that allows you to ride a high horsepower bike with fewer
compromises, it'll mean riding it with higher cornerspeed AND
accelerating out of corners like crazy. Got a better way of doing it?

 

...Asked Barry Sheene of Kenny Roberts 30 years ago. Yes, if side grip
is unlimited the fastest way around a corner is to apex at the maximum
possible speed and to get on the gas as hard as possible and as early
as possible. But it's not, so there will always be some compromise.
And the fastest way around the track is always the manner in current
vogue, and that changes oveer time. I absolutely believe that this is
the way now in part because most of the guys going fastest and
developing the fastest machines learned their trade on 125s and 250s,
where this has always been the dominant style. Take tires - if rider
feedback is for more side grip over drive grip, then the manufacturers
will develop in that direction, which in turn makes for higher corner
speed - you gotta use what you have. But if the riders came up racing
on the dirt and on SBs, then they might be asking for more drive grip,
because they tend to square off corners and jump on the gas more. And
I think these 125/250 guys also demanded the traction control stuff
more, because they've alway had more problems with sliding and
highsides (think Christian Sarron, or maybe Jorge Lorenzo). I don't
think anything in racing happens in a vacuum.

Well, with the possible exception of decisionmaking at DMG...

 

Nothing. I just don't think they should be doing it at the world
championship level. I don't think anyone should be allowed to race in
GPs until they're 18.

Do you just

The Cup thing is even worse, I think. People were saying all the
highsiding and crashing at Sears may have been because those kids were
reacting to the pressure of the situation, running in front of the AMA
guys and a crowd at a national. Now transfer that to a GP. I think
kids should learn to ride in a low-pressure situation, they put enough
pressure on themselves.

Doesn't sound right, AMA nationals run the Red Bull Rookies and last
year at Miller they ran the USGPRU 125 class, which includes kids. My
guess is the AMA set its minimum on the basis of who they thought
should be racing and who shouldn't. I remember in 1986 Kocinski
couldn't race in the 200 for Yamaha because he hadn't yet turned 18,
which I understood to be the minimum for at least SB and F1. Stoner
and his family moved to the UK because he couldn't road race in Aus
until he was 16.

I just see no reason why riders have to get to that level so young,
and by setting up reasonable and responsible age minimums the problems
go away. Right now it feels like a race to be the first one in the
door, because that's who gets the attention of the guys doing the
hiring in GP. And I see no real value in that, the racing in 125 won't
be any worse if the racers have to be at least 18, and it won't be any
worse in MotoGP if the racers have to be at least 21. And can a team
make better long-term hiring decisions when they're looking at guys
who are 19 or 20, or kids who are 15 or 16?

 

Wow. Just wow. I was hoping after all the stats you like to
research, you'd have a little more understanding of what modern road
racing is built on. There's no compromise in side grip, Mark. Hasn't
been for ages. I can get to full corner speed in the dry on my F4i
with slicks almost immediately after taking them off warmers. The
difference is in how they respond to deep braking and drive added to
that side grip. That's a 7 year old production motorcycle with a less
than mediocre club rider at the controls. If you watch a superbike
and a GP bike circulate the same track and you find that the superbike
exhibits slower apex speeds, it's not because it's not capable of
higher corner speeds, but because making it go faster mid-corner would
compromise the drive too much and cannot be resolved under the rules
and technology of the time.

Look up some interviews with racers comparing superbikes to GP bikes.
There are many out-there. But I'll save you the trouble. The big
difference is in what you're allowed to do to a GP bike as compared to
a production based bike. If you have a negative handling
characteristic you're trying to change (like tire chatter), a GP team
will likely address the chassis: stiffness and engine placement, etc.,
whereas a superbike team would be limited to steering geometry and
suspension. A GP team can change engines, chassis, and basically any
component at any time during the season, unlike a superbike team,
which is working off a fixed engineering base line. That superbikes
are so close in performance to GP bikes is a testament to the amazing
fact that the sportbike market has made it feasible for the
manufacturers to develop and sell motorcycles with a huge potential on
the track, right out of the box.

 

At the other extreme look at Rossi's bike with it's new swingarm and the
headstock band-sawed off and replaced with a piece that moves the
headstock forwards. Rossi now has a Yamaha that is significantly
different to the other three. They now have two development paths based
on the tyres.

And to some extent in MotoGP the bikes are brand new every Friday
morning.

 

FP1. Stoner storming away. Hayden second.

If there is any rain, I think it's not due until Sunday.

 

No 3rd bike. Loris had a really nasty highside that ended with the
footpeg landing on his arm, same arm as the hurt hand, and gouged a hole
in his forearm. Costa is patching him up and nobody knows yet if he'll
be out tomorrow. So Spies may yet ride but will have lost a day.

 

Mark N lists:

If somebody needs to get fired, here's my first choice.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Alexey is exhasperated:

Yea, I went back and read that part now and not only
is it bonehead wrong, he defends it in another post
without any comprehension of what's going on.

Hey Mark, take an American Supercamp school, they
have them out your way once in a while, they're really good
at teaching you something about cornering, and they're
fun as hell. Get one out there and maybe a boz bro will be
quest instructor besides.

Then come talk to us about side grip.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

I didn't split cornering and acceleration until you brought up that
subject. And you can push the front on the power coming out of a turn
too, BTW.

Go look at a GP bike after a season and see how many welds you will
find around the headstock and engine mounts, then we can talk about
whether GP and superbike squads have the same options.

People were surprised by the 800's character because of maturation of
electronics. And if they were surprised, then how does that play into
your theory of a big European conspiracy to keep the likes of Nicky
and Colin and John and Ben out of the series.

Firstly, I don't understand how you can comment on an engineering
process you neither understand, nor or privy to the details of.

Secondly, Hayden has stated his preference for the new Honda engine,
while Pedrosa has stated his preference for the older one. Hayden is
putting in more laps every session than Pedrosa, yet produces worse
results for the time being. Both guys have logical reasons for their
positions and Honda, you might say is caught in the middle, unless
they're willing to support both engines at least for the remainder of
the season. One might say that it doesn't particularly matter to them
if Hayden does much better this year, when they have a strong
championship contender at the moment. Yet, they're putting in
resources to deliver the new motor specifically to Hayden, since it
doesn't seem like Pedrosa is going to be using it in 2008. But I'm
sure there's an explanation for all this that jives perfectly with the
tiny evil European people conspiring against Americans.

Holy shit, I never thought anybody would be able to tie big bang
technology to politics, but there you go. Good job, Mark. First of
all, big bang is still not well understood by engineers and so
sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't. Secondly, you can't
really compare big bang on 4 strokes to big bang on 2 strokes. And
thirdly, in case you weren't paying attention, Kawasaki was looking at
a screamer engine as recently as a couple of months ago. Word is, for
now, it works well as far as lap times, but can't go the race distance
on fuel. I couldn't begin to tell you why. Ducati has gone through
multiple firing order configurations. It's not entirely clear what
they're using now, as they don't always accurately publicize their
latest GP tech. Either way though, no one is keeping precious
screamer engines under lock and key in order to stunt Americans'
advancement.

I don't even know what that means.

 

Why not? If it's because of mental and emotional pressures, are you
also against kids acting in films or becoming pop stars before they're
18? And if it's because of risk of physical injury, GP racing is by
far not the most dangerous activity adults involve kids in. A few of
years ago, I went dirt riding with a friend and he got hurt. When we
got him to the local hospital, we heard about a 12 year old boy dying
that very day after having another rider land on top of him. A 14
year old kid died doing club racing at Summit Point this year. Kids
break bones and tear ligaments playing American football and no one
bats an eye.

I'd love to hear about this low pressure road racing you speak of.
I've been club racing since 2001 and I get the same butterflies in my
stomach every time I hear my race called on the PA. I'm sorry to call
you out like this, but have you so much as done a track day to be able
to comment on how people should learn to ride/race?

Look, fundamentally I agree. Somewhere, it becomes unreasonable to
make professional athletes out of kids. But at the same time, 18
ain't the line to me. And if anything, allowing a teenager to
acclimatize to an international racing series after doing well in a
national one before jumping on a big bike actually helps rather than
hurts in that regard.

 

Good idea, Mike, I'll put that on my list of things to do. Right after
that college physics course, the one that will help me understand why
the optimum weight for a MotoGP rider is 160 pounds...

 

He's wrong, plain and simple. Granted, properly set up, a bike
"shouldn't" push on the gas, but with the right track surface
undulations and/or center of mass being too far back, the front can
get unweighted, thanks to good grip from the rear, but might still be
tasked with completing the cornering trajectory.

I first started thinking about this after a guy pitting next to me
came back from a session with a broken arm after the bike lost the
front exiting a turn. At the time we were both scratching our heads
as to what the problem might have been, but later on it occurred to me
that I once tucked the front end after getting on the gas abruptly in
a very slow corner as well. My crash was on a CBR F3, which I knew to
be set up too light on the front, due to certain technical
limitations. It's not common, but it can certainly happen. It's the
same effect as losing the rear going into a corner, a la Lorenzo this
year.

 

Mark N says:

That's not college physics, that's sturd guessing.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Shit - too late to get my tuition fee back...

 

Look, Howard, we have a different opinion on this, and that's it. I
didn't say anyone else was wrong, I just said I don't think kids
should be racing in the world championships, and for a number of
reasons. I also don't think 13-year-olds should be racing at the AMA
level, I don't like the Red Bull thing here either, although I don't
have a real problem with 16-year-olds racing in support classes.
Apparently you think kids should be racing wherever they want and can
compete, fine, that's your opinion. But, no, you have to be a dick
about it as well. Not surprising, of course, that's just what you do,
I guess. Just a sniff of the ol' gang behavior and you come running.

Oh, and don't forget to come back with something about name-calling.
That's also what you do. Meanwhile I'll start bowing down to your oh-
so-obvious moral, intellectual and social superiority...

 

WTF?

 

Mark N laments:

You're SOL man. Walker gives no refunds either.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.