The way of the world

The problem with sin is that it's often all over in minutes.

 

Chris H

You haven't sinned properly then, have you?

 

I bet they'd pay the same as they do most admin staff, so around 12K.

That's all I'd pay a 16 year old, but I'd make sure they had the chance
to learn loads, if they showed promise I'd give them a pay rise year on
year until they were on at least a graduate type salary, aged 22.

Then I'd put them in charge of graduates..

 

If they're having trouble finding people who are already trained, then
why don't they take on the training themselves?

There's no point in companies complaining about a lack of skilled people
if they themselves aren't investing in training.

Unfortunately, British manufacturing seems to be stuck in the rut where
companies are constantly moaning about the lack of skilled people out
there, but won't be proactive in contributing to training people.

 

SteveH wrote

Training is kin expensive and years ago when we had an industry making
stuff for the rest of the world the gummint knew this and subsidised it
very heavily. Then we caught Maggie's disease and developed a major
dose of New Labour Syndrome.

 

[young people in work]

You sound like Norman *fucking* Tebbitt. [1] Is your glass always half
empty?

[1] and I'm sure you're delighted with the comparison.

 

SteveH was seen penning the following ode to ... whatever:

Basic economics, that's what's happened here. Basically, it'd work out
cheaper for an employer to hire someone who's already been trained by
someone else rather than training said person themselves. So, if they
take someone on and train them, chances are that the competition comes
along and offers them a fiver more per month. Which the competition
can afford, as they haven't had to invest in the training in the first
place.

So, everybody moans about the lack of trained people but nobody does
anything about it because they're all afraid that if they do, someone
else is going to take advantage of it.

If you look at it this way, Blur's drive to get people into Uni is a
very business-friendly way of replacing at least a basic kind of
apprenticeship because business doesn't have to pay for it anymore...

The fact that it devalues any kind of University degree is probably
ignored, plus if they leave Uni owning 10 grand, they'll become more
willing workers as fear is a great motivator.

Here endeth the economics rant...

 

Yeah, if only they were learning stuff that business actually
wanted/needed.

 

<fx: makes note to tell the resident machinist when he phones later>

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This demonstrates why I confidently don't expect you to become CEO of
anything larger than Ginge's Race School.

 

Hold on a moment.

Explain why it's a bad idea to put someone with several years of company
experience into a position where they can introduce 'raw' graduates to
the workings of a company.

One of the things really lacking in a fresh from university graduate is
exposure to the marketplace and commercial awareness - 12 months working
for someone that's learnt from the ground up will help them assimilate
that knowledge, give them a chance to understand how things work and
find where they could improve things based on real first hand knowledge.

Or is that an incredibly old fashioned view in this modern world?

 

SteveH says...

Some places do, the NHS for example. MRAS takes on trainees and
discovered that after qualifying people were p*ssing off to other Trusts
for better pay. (Trust status means that there isn't really a like-for-
like in pay, it depends on what each Trust can afford to pay). So they
introduced a policy whereby each candidate had to stay with the trust
for a set period of time, or re-pay the training costs.

It worked.

True. I only know of one engineering company that invests in training.

Aye.

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Un-cork me to reply

 

Because a graduate knows things. Lots of things. Someone who's done a
job for four years, just knows how to do that job.

Yes, that's what you'd like to think. But you were proposing making an
experienced nobody the manager of a bunch of graduates. Which is a
recipe for disaster.

It's the view of someone who didn't go to university and isn't aware of
the non-subject matter learning that goes on.

 

problem is two fold many of the kids leaving school now that 20/30 ago
would have gone into engineering have seen the effects of rescission on
these industries and opt for university education instead, leaving only the
lesser able kids to fill these vacancies

It costs money to train staff , competition is tight and margins a lot less
than 20 years ago, if a company starts a training programme they end up at
an economical disadvantage compared to there competitors who do not train
staff

cost to train an apprentice now runs at around £50000.00 over three years
that's a lot to find for a small company , the citb /eitb
training boards do offer grants but it know were covers the training costs

 

whilst graduates are well educated and can spout chapter and verse about
there given subject many can not put this information into practical use ,
whilst this is not a problem in jobs of a theoretical nature its pretty
useless in practical jobs .

A graduate who cannot recognise that a guy/gal who has worked on the shop
floor may have a better practical understanding of the job than themselves
is a fool ,

 

Well it would depend on the "experienced nobody" really, but you have a
valid point which counters my over idealistic stance. Obviously the
skills of a manager have a focus on people and not experience gained
working through the ranks. Many people don't have that ability or
aren't interested in looking after people, and why should they be? Plus
there are those who want power but don't use it well. Management sure
as hell is not for everyone.

There are a few people I've worked for that fitted the bill, but it's
something that just can't be taught. Sadly those people are rare.
Where both experience and management capability does exist it's a
powerful thing - in this argument that's the ideal I'm pushing.

I doubt we'll agree on any of this, but, maybe it's a future discussion
for over a pint. Tonic water in your case.

 

Yeah, whereas you still can't master snipping sigs. I really don't
think anyone gives a flying **** you think, as you obviously can't.

 

We're not that far from agreeing, funnily enough. I just bristled at
your championing of the experienced but uneducated as ideal manage
inexperienced graduates. Clearly crazy, as you state above: "management
sure as hell is not for everyone".

 

that's probably half your problem you don't think or is that you cant think

fuckwit

 

No, that's what I just said to you.

Feel free to recycle my insults, but you might want to give it at least
a couple of days before using them back /on me/.