The sad thing is...

Discussion in 'Motorcycle Racing' started by auscars, Jul 24, 2006.

  1. auscars

    pablo Guest

    You're making points I have made a hundred times this year. It's only and
    exclusively when it comes to your premature conclusion that "Rossi just got
    lucky in the past, and he has not risen to face adversity this yea,r and
    thus he is not a great rider."

    That is s huge fallacy because:

    1. You are not applycing the same standard to judge Hayden, which would
    censequently have to be: Hayden just got lucky this year (like Rossi
    before), since he ist just there because he has gone incident free bla bla.
    In previous years, hayden has also shown he isn't a great rider, failing to
    rise to the occasion when facing adversity bla bla...
    So, if Rossi is not failing to rise to the occasion and isn't that great
    (after 7 lucky titles), what does it say about Hayden, who may just now
    score his first (lucky) title, eh?
    I agree with the second premise, which means all riders are judged by the
    same standard. In your first sentence, you blatantly violate that premise,
    though. Rossi isn't great because of how great he looks when he doesn't win
    (a premise MN has always exclusively applied on US riders), but because he's
    won that same title Hayden is about to score seven bleeping times, man, wake
    up. And hiw win ratio in the field is unmathced, and ranks among the highest
    in history.

    And Rossi has not "failed" sh*t. '07 is his worst season ever. Oh well, it
    happens to the best. But he has the record, it's there for the history
    books, and has the undeniable ability to perhaps write history again in '07.

    ....pablo
     
    pablo, Jul 25, 2006
    #21
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  2. Ah, the first seeds of the upcoming Rossi/Burgess rift.
     
    Bikini Whacks, Jul 25, 2006
    #22
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  3. auscars

    js1 Guest

    Someone like Rossi is a good development rider. You can't be that
    successful at that level of the game and not be. It all comes down to
    giving consistent and repeatable feedback.

    I think the problem with Yamaha this year is the bike is very sensitive
    to the tire design. Michelin brings a stickier tire, and the bike
    doesn't work quite right. They missed on that crucial parameter.
     
    js1, Jul 26, 2006
    #23
  4. auscars

    js1 Guest

    Yes, but with everything else being equal, Rossi is better at it.
    On average, the Hondas are obviously a little bit more perfect than the
    Yamahas.
     
    js1, Jul 26, 2006
    #24
  5. auscars

    pablo Guest

    You are the authority on that. I think Hayden is awesome this season, and
    deserves to win the title. However, I am not sure how that correlates to
    Rossi being a lesser rider after achieving what Hyaden is just about to
    achieve this year, 7 times, at basically the same age. That's all. Any
    anti-Rossi point you make based on Hayden's season is going to reflect badly
    on Hayden if the same benchmark is applied at the end of the day. That's
    all.

    Rossi has had a bad season, whatever the reason, he's provided plenty of
    proof as to his quality before. And perhaps again - we shall see. Given his
    ability, it'd be disappointing for Rossi to not provide a better fight next
    year. But sometimes great champions also make unforgettable history losing a
    spectacular fight - it makes for more entertainment than one-sided
    victories.

    ....pablo
     
    pablo, Jul 26, 2006
    #25
  6. auscars

    sturd Guest

    Julian Bond points out:
    And getting everything out of the tires too:
    http://www.superbikeplanet.com/image/2006/mgp/USGP/tim12/p08.htm


    Go fast. Take chances.
    Mike S.
     
    sturd, Jul 27, 2006
    #26
  7. auscars

    Ed Light Guest

    Actually a water system failure did the smokey thing.

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    Ed Light, Jul 27, 2006
    #27
  8. auscars

    S Frank Guest

    asscars,

    Up until this year Rossi was the luckiest rider that has ever ridden in
    MotoGP. He has had the best bike and team every year since he started
    racing in 125. How many championships has Burgess been involved
    in?

    I do not think there is anyone in MotoGP that is clearly better than Hayden
    except for Rossi. And at the end of the day the championship is awarded
    to the guy with the most points, not to the rider that some idiots on the
    internet
    think was the best.
     
    S Frank, Jul 29, 2006
    #28
  9. auscars

    pablo Guest

    Given Yam's track record when Rossi joined them, and the visible fact he
    rode the wheels off a slower bike, that's a silly thing to say.

    The only guy in MotoGP that's been in the winningest, best team from his
    first day in it has been Nicky Hayden, and no one else.


    ....pablo
     
    pablo, Jul 29, 2006
    #29
  10. auscars

    js1 Guest

    What?! Rossi? Pedrosa?
     
    js1, Jul 29, 2006
    #30
  11. auscars

    S Frank Guest

    Ever since Rossi went to Yam the bike was much improved
    compared to past years when Max was on it. Of course Rossi
    could make a bike look better, but you seem to forget that most
    of his core crew from Honda went with him Yamaha. The Yamaha
    was always slower than the Honda in a straght line, but after Rossi
    moved over that was not the case any more (maybe the first year
    but definitely not after that).
     
    S Frank, Jul 29, 2006
    #31
  12. auscars

    Ed Light Guest

    I wonder if they told Yam about the Honda tech, or if they had signed some
    sort of oath of secrecy.


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    Ed Light, Jul 30, 2006
    #32
  13. auscars

    Jake Guest

    How do you figure? The Burgess, Rossi, and Crew team that won all the
    races for Honda decamped wholesale to Yamaha in 2004, leaving behind a
    sponsor, a manufacturer, and a 2nd-year rider. The team was clearly
    not the best or winningest at that point, as it rode for 2 wins over
    the next two years, both of which came from the clearly junior member
    of the team (Hayden).

    Just because the title sponsor is the same doesn't mean it's the same
    team, no matter how much Repsol would like you to believe otherwise.

    -jake
     
    Jake, Jul 30, 2006
    #33
  14. auscars

    pablo Guest

    Being the official Honda team doesn't count. How convenient.
     
    pablo, Jul 30, 2006
    #34
  15. auscars

    Jake Guest

    What was left of the Repsol Honda Team after Burgess, Rossi, and crew
    left was clearly not the best team on the grid, and I'd say was
    arguably not even the best Honda team on the grid. So no, as far as
    the claim that Hayden has spent his entire career on the best team on
    the grid, it doesn't.

    And even if it did, would this make him more privileged than Rossi
    because Rossi spent a year on the one-bike Nastro Azzuro team? A year
    in which he was the top-finishing Honda? Feh.

    By the way, Ukawa spent his entire career on the Repsol Honda Team when
    it was the best one on the grid, unfortunately he was mediocre.
    Pedrosa is started his career on what might be the best team on the
    grid, given Yamaha's missteps this year; certainly the best team to be
    a second rider on.

    -jake
     
    Jake, Jul 30, 2006
    #35
  16. auscars

    pablo Guest

    So then we'll just have to state that Hayden was in the team with the
    biggest budget, and as a team they weren't worth it, eh?

    ....pablo
     
    pablo, Jul 30, 2006
    #36
  17. auscars

    Jake Guest

    Yup. And once Honda pulled their head out and got an American
    ex-superbike rider as their lead guy instead of one of those mentally
    weak Euro 250 types, they're back to having a chance at the title.

    -jake
     
    Jake, Jul 30, 2006
    #37
  18. auscars

    Ed Light Guest


    This is not a " ;-)" ??


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    Ed Light, Jul 30, 2006
    #38
  19. auscars

    pablo Guest

    Err, Hayden was integral part of that losing team for all these years.
     
    pablo, Jul 30, 2006
    #39
  20. auscars

    Jake Guest

    It's mostly a ;-).

    Gibernau didn't really lose because he was slower than Rossi; he lost
    because he imploded mentally. Similarly, Nicky isn't beating Rossi in
    last-lap duels, he's (with the aid of a fair bit of luck) applying
    pressure through consistency, putting Rossi in a position where he HAS
    to do well, even on days where he's not lucky or the bike isn't
    working.

    But they're clearly doing better with Hayden as their number one than
    they did with anyone since Rossi.

    -jake
     
    Jake, Jul 30, 2006
    #40
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