The "R" word

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by platypus, Oct 15, 2004.


  1. People with a sketchy knowledge of history, or a slanted view of it[1],
    always forget that. That was 150,000 Frogs who lived to fight another
    day (as opposed to the ones who fought with the Germans in Russia, and
    against the Allies in North Africa/Middle East - something else that is
    often conveniently forgotten).

    I'm always amused by people who go on about how Paris was liberated by
    the French. Yeah, er, right. Technically......

    For the history buffs, I can thoroughly recommend Armageddon, Max
    Hastings' new tome about the defeat of Germany from 1944-45.

    Utterly brilliant. Up there with Stalingrad. He makes the point that as
    far as fighting went, the Western Front was really a sideshow: the real
    fighting was, as always, on the Eastern Front. He also points out that
    man for man, and in matters of training, ability, initiative, and all
    equipment (with the notable exception of air power and the T34 tank) the
    Wehrmacht was far and away the best army in the field, right up to
    collapse.

    He also highlights the slowness of the Allied advance post-September
    1944, partly because the Allies were intent on avoiding (their own)
    casualties and preferred to rely on firepower rather than good tactics,
    and partly because the allied commanders (in the west) had nobody to
    compare with Kesselring, Manstein, von Rundstedt or indeed, Zhukov or
    Konev.

    And he dwells on the catastrophes in East Prussia and the ethnic
    cleansing there, something else that has been mostly swept under the
    carpet of history.

    Seriously recommended. Only in hardback at ukp25.


    [1] And usually both. IMHO, a mind that takes a slanted biased view of
    things in general can't handle history which is, a bit like mathematics,
    largely tied up with facts.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Oct 16, 2004
    #61
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  2. It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
    drugs began to take hold. I remember
    (The Older Gentleman) saying
    something like:
    Much of that was down to Montgomery, who preferred to wait until Allied
    firepower and sheer numbers of tanks, men and equipment was built up
    enough to advance with some large chance of success. Caused a bit of
    friction with the Yanks, that did, they preferring to launch off sooner.
    It's a tactic he employed with success in the North African campaign.

    --

    Dave

    GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
    SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
    FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10
     
    Grimly Curmudgeon, Oct 16, 2004
    #62
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  3. platypus

    dwb Guest

    Is that french for "predictable and tedious" ?
     
    dwb, Oct 16, 2004
    #63

  4. Yes, this was mentioned. Also the Allies had a desperate concern not to
    expose their flanks. There were several times when they could just have
    punched in and on, but they were always fearful of a counter-attack and
    an outflanking manoeuvre: something at which the Wehrmacht excelled.

    And the US generalling was, by and large, poor, Patton being the only
    general who came even close to Wehrmacht standards.

    Esienhower comes in for a lot of praise, not for his generalship, but
    for the way in which he held the Allies together and dealt with Monty.

    The soldiers themselves? Hastings points out that hardly any Allied
    soldiers, on the battlefield, could hold a candle to their Wehrmacht
    opponents. They (especially the Americans) just didn't have the
    experience.

    I treasure the throwaway line: "The Wehrmacht never let Allied mistakes
    go unpunished".

    It's a superb book.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Oct 16, 2004
    #64
  5. French for: "I'm wrong, have been proved wrong, but think I know better
    anyway."

    **** knows what he's got against Dodger, anyway. It's not like he's had
    to try and sleep through his snoring.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Oct 16, 2004
    #65
  6. platypus

    Krycek Guest

    Krycek, Oct 16, 2004
    #66
  7. Yes, this is true. Agreed.

    However, there is a very strong difference between interpreting facts
    and denying them - or ignoring them.

    For example, Russians were never taught that during the war, immense
    quantities of supplies were shipped to them, at great cost in men, money
    and materiel, because the regime had to rely on its version of history -
    and "version" here wass not so much a re-interpreation as a denial of
    what happened.

    Same went for the 1939 Nazi-Soviet pact. George Orwell treated the idea
    of rewriting history brilliantly, in 1984.
    I wouldn't say "the most banal facts". See the above examples. But, yes,
    I'd concede that a lot of history is open to different interpretations.
    Which rather backs up my earlier assertion - people who have a rigid and
    blinkered mindset - like Des - tend not to make decent historians (in
    fact, cannot argue any historical point effectively) because they cannot
    accept any version of events that differs from their own take on it.

    Of course, as more facts become known, then history has to be
    re-written, the classic example being the Ultra/Enigma secret, which
    explained so many "incredible" coups but which was not revealed until
    some 30 years after the war's end.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Oct 16, 2004
    #67
  8. Champ wrote
    Far, far too close to the truth.
     
    steve auvache, Oct 16, 2004
    #68
  9. tallbloke wrote
    Not necessarily. Sprouts are at their absolute best from about a week
    after the first heavy frost until they start to grow again. Enzymes
    innit. They turn starch into sugars when it gets a bit chilly.
     
    steve auvache, Oct 16, 2004
    #69
  10. platypus

    tallbloke Guest


    YLSNED
     
    tallbloke, Oct 16, 2004
    #70
  11. platypus

    Mo Guest

    Once in the early days of Abu Dhabi I had the misfortune to stay
    at the Alain Palace hotel, they had a different name for the
    potatoes ever day of the week but all you ever got was baked
    'taties.
     
    Mo, Oct 17, 2004
    #71
  12. platypus

    Mo Guest

    <Snips lots of interesting stuff>

    Surely the interpretation of Historical facts has the same
    problems as long range weather forecasting. You can know
    _nearly_ all the facts but predicting the outcome that would
    result from them is hampered by the chaotic nature of large
    events and small missing facts can and do, lead to radically
    different outcomes. "for the want of a nail..."
     
    Mo, Oct 17, 2004
    #72
  13. Colonel Tupperware, Oct 17, 2004
    #73
  14. Oh give it a fucking rest.
     
    Paul Corfield, Oct 17, 2004
    #74
  15. platypus

    Ben Blaney Guest

    The CLF and the proximity to Hay-on-Wye are reasons I'm jealous of you
    living in the Midlands.
     
    Ben Blaney, Oct 18, 2004
    #75
  16. platypus

    Champ Guest

    Grrrr.
     
    Champ, Oct 18, 2004
    #76
  17. platypus

    dwb Guest

    er.. What did he get wrong Des? You certainly aren't genuine nor are you
    well liked - so are you saying you're warm and friendly?
     
    dwb, Oct 18, 2004
    #77
  18. platypus

    dwb Guest

    No no - "just trolling" remember.
     
    dwb, Oct 18, 2004
    #78
  19. platypus

    Ace Guest

    Haven't you met him then?
     
    Ace, Oct 18, 2004
    #79
  20. platypus

    dwb Guest

    Could you answer the question I posed which you've snipped :

    "You certainly aren't genuine nor are you
    well liked - so are you saying you're warm and friendly?"
     
    dwb, Oct 18, 2004
    #80
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