Texas troopers lying about motorcycle speeds?

Learning how to maneuver around a parking lot at speeds under 20 mph is probably
the least useful skill the class teaches. Obviously, for repeat attendees and
experienced riders alike, it is patently *not* useful. So, if you truly believe
that that is what the course is meant to teach, then you've wasted a minimum of
90% of your money.

I took the MRC once in 1986. That was enough to save me money on my insurance
(10%) every year since. I certainly didn't have to go 10 times to save money on
my insurance.

Does *it* teach students anything other than "how to maneuver their bikes around
a parking lot at speeds under 20 mph?"

That's a very good question. Let me ask you this: Do you think the course
teaches anything else of value? Do you think anything that the course teaches
transfers to street riding and/or traffic situations?

I vividly recall my attitude before taking the novice rider's course in 1986,
after eight years of (mostly successful) street riding: 1.) There's nothing
they can teach me in a parking lot that will make me a better rider, and 2.) I'm
only taking the course for an insurance discount. I don't expect to actually
learn anything useful.

Now, if the only (or even the primary or main) thing that the course did that
weekend was to teach me how to maneuver a bike around a parking lot at speeds
under 20 mph, then I think I would have had my preconceptions and expectations
validated. Instead, the former were shattered and the latter were wildly
exceeded.

Why did you take the class ten times?

Tim

 

I am being educated about this Motorcycle Safety Course, here.. I've never
taken the course.. I have been riding for longer than I like to admit.. Many
miles, under any condition to be imagined.. My mentor that started me was
one of the best bike handlers ever to hold handlebars.. For two days, we
spent time in a huge, deserted parking lot.. Then we went to the highway..
He impressed me with survival skills in "real" conditions.. Now I am
reminded of the news item a few months ago, about one of our own being
killed.. She was a popular radio personality in the metroplex who became
infatuated with motorcycles.. She attended one of the MSR courses and got
her first bike.. Within a few days she rode with a group of seasoned bikers
and was killed doing a transition from Central Expressway to Woodall
Rogers.. Simple manuever for the bikers that she was riding with.. During
the mourning period for her, the instructor of the MSR course was
understandably stricken.. My objections to the course are mostly confined
to the completion speech at the end of the course . The rookies are welcomed
to the bikers world and told that by completing the course, they have become
"bikers".. Wrong.. They should be counseled to find a mentor who will
hopefully teach them the survival skills to live on the streets and
highways..Each year during the Toy Run in DFW, the rookies in the run are
the most dangerous and unpredictable.. They have the accidents.. Most have
completed a MSR course and believe they can ride with "anyone"..
Wrong..again.. Without survival skills, which are very difficult to teach
and it takes a lot of miles and time, those rookies are accidents looking
for a place to happen..For the price of the course, the instructor should
include the following statement to that student.. "Now that I have taught
you the fundamentals of handling a bike, your next step is to find a mentor
who will teach you the skills of survival".. Years and miles, children.. No
shortcuts..If you are lucky, you will live as long as I have on the highway
and streets..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

On Tue, 03 Feb 2004 01:22:20 GMT, "Bill Walker"

I have managed to survive my first thirty-five years of riding, with a
few dents but not deterred. Looking back luck had a lot to do with my
surviving the early years. One accident and one low side opened my
eyes and relaxed my hand on the throttle. Since then I have managed
to ride safe.

There is no replacement for experience. Not that I am suggesting one
has to experience a crash to learn how to ride, but there is a comfort
level or a feeling of control one acquires with hours in the saddle.

That being said I find myself considering taking a safety course this
spring. Not for the reduction in insurance rates, I pay peanuts as it
is. Not for a substantial improvement to my riding skills. You cant
teach an old dog new tricks. Mostly for the fun of it and if during
the course of the class I pick up a few tips or tricks that might help
me out of the next tight spot I get into, great.

As much as I hate to admit it, I have picked up a few tips from some
of the posters around here.

Bottom line, the class wont make me a worse rider.

But could it make a newbie a more dangerous rider? That first year of
riding is so important. I agree with you, Bill, you learn things on
the road I don't think can be taught in a class. I know a headstrong
young kid who might take the false confidence of an MSF course,
combine it with an overpowered bike and wrap himself around a lamp
standard. That young kid was me 35 years ago. (maybe longer I have
lost count)

As a first step in the process the MSF is great, and maybe should be
mandatory for new riders, but it is simply one step. For at least
that first year take it easy & log some low risk miles.


84 - Virago 1000
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/

Never mistake horsepower for staying power

 

Dead wrong. There is nothing like that "completion speech" in the curriculum of
any MSF course; never has been, never will be. In fact, the curriculum advises
that completion of the Basic Rider Course provides students with an introduction
to the fundamentals of motorcycle control and mental strategies for riding.
Students are cautioned that statistically, the first six months of motorcycle
riding are the most dangerous period of time to ride. The instructor (coach)
reminds students that they need to practice the skills that they have been
introduced to in the class. Students are warned that their own personal bikes
will react differently to braking, steering, and throttle inputs than class
bikes do, and that they need to familiarize themselves with the way their own
bikes react under maximum braking and while swerving to avoid obstacles. They
are encouraged to practice in parking lots, to ride in low risk situations, to
avoid riding in groups, not to ride with riders who might encourage them to
exceed their own fledgling skill levels. They are invited to return as soon as
possible to take the Experienced Rider Course, in which they can take their
new-found skills a level higher in a controlled environment, with external
feedback and critique, and do so all on their own bikes, making the experience
much more immediate and useful.

My students are also reminded that riding is 90% mental, and that they need to
practice their mental riding skills as assiduously as they do physical skills.
They are advised to practice using Search-Evaluate-Execute (SEE, the replacement
for SIPDE) even when in their cars, looking far ahead for potential hazards,
identifying them, predicting what will happen, assessing worst case scenarios,
and playing the "what if" game, all the while planning their own actions to
mitigate and minimize risk.

Finally, they are once again warned that all the skills, all the risk
mitigation, all the mental strategies, conspicuity clothing, protective gear,
and equipment preparation cannot make motorcycling 100% perfectly safe, and they
are reminded that in addition to recognizing and responding to risk, part of
riding a motorcycle will always require accepting a certain level of risk that
many people would find objectionable in their day to day lives.

Then the Toy Runs need to be reorganized by the sponsors and/or the more
experienced riders, the so-called "mentors," in such a way as to minimize or
eliminate such accidents. Much like a good road captain in a riding club will
demand a certain level of demonstrable proficiency prior to allowing a new club
member to join a club ride, those rookies must either be prevented from riding
or escorted in such a manner as to minimize the danger they pose to themselves
and other road users.

Anyone who believes that they can "ride with anyone" after taking a weekend
riding course is an accident waiting to happen. If first-time rider ever left
one of my courses believing that, I would consider my instruction and coaching
to have been a complete and utter failure for that student.

I don't believe that there is a mentor out there for each and every new rider.
Nor, unfortunately, do I believe that more than a handful of experienced riders
are capable of properly mentoring new riders. I've seen too many old wives
tales, myths, and just plain bad advice proffered by the experienced to new
riders over the years. Sure, there are many out there who don't fit that
description (I've been fortunate to teach with, ride with, and race against some
of the best over the years) but they are few and far between.

You were lucky to have found such a mentor, Bill. Truly lucky.

Tim

 

Not me. I demand that LEOs be used to deter crimes, that taxes be
lowered, and services be acquired by the people who want them at their
option and at their expense instead of wanting others to pay for their
wish lists.

 

Drop the "R" and you'll get closer to the nickname.

--

Mark Johnson, Fort Worth, Texas; IBA #?; CM #1; DoD #2021
2003 FJR1300 "E²"

http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org

 

I have. I was there. The ticket was incorrect as it had "Mat Johnson" as
the name. I set all the way through court and never heard Mark or Mat
called. Eventually the traffic court judge asked that anyone who hadn't
been called to approach. I explained that I was never called.

He consulted with the clerk (5 feet away and in open conversation),
pulled the citation, and said, "Here it is. I called you. 'Mike
Jackson'. Why didn't you respond? I've already released the officer to
return to duty. What do you propose I do?"

I responded casually, "I move that we dismiss for lack of a witness for
the prosecution."

His face turned so red I thought he was going to pop. He rescheduled
and forced me to take another day off from work. Which would be the 3rd
time as the first date I showed up and court had been cancelled without
notice to those any defendants. The judge had a bad day so cancelled
court without notice to anyone but the Clerk. If I had not appeared, I'd
have had a warrant issued against me.

 

Local budgets aren't bottomless anymore like that were in the heyday of
the tax-and-spend era. Their Administrators go back to the trough and
find it harder to get more from their sources so are faced with doing
with what they have. Their elected officials HAVE to respond to public
outcry about real crime issues and what are being done to curtail those
rates. All of that intersects and they eventually have to apply their
existing staff to reductions of real crimes instead of arbitrary
roadside performance awards.

--

Mark Johnson, Fort Worth, Texas; IBA #?; CM #1; DoD #2021
2003 FJR1300 "E²"

http://www.bikes-n-spikes.org

 

BINGO! (on all counts)

This is also at the root of the ultimate "check and balance" within our
system. The trump card to all judicial edicts. So distasteful to those
in power that they fail to even inform a jury of its existance and often
MISinform them that their judgments can ONLY be based on a very limits
scope of options. A "fully informed jury" also knows about "Jury
Nulification"; their ability to find a defendant "not guilty" even when
the fact show that they violated a law, when they determine that the law
being prosecuted is unjust on inappropriate (Prohibition for example).
The reason Prohibition was abolished with a follow-up Amendment was that
no court in the land could get a successful guilty verdict from juries
who refused to determine guilt; they thought the law was unreasonable
and unjust.

 

You must really be new to usenet if you think spelling flames are worth
the effort.

 

My objections to the course are mostly confined

Tim, I got the impression it was probably one of those Hardley classes
in MSF clothing. You know, the ones that use the HD name, lease the HD
bikes, and only invite HD owners while teaching the MSF curiculum that
was developed over the years with funding and support from everyone
except for HD.

 

my mind works creatively, it was 'brownie' for a while you know.. head
injuries,

.....if it gets any worse it will be 'chocolate cookie' next....and thamks
again for the absolutely wonderful advice on how to conduct ones self in
court on traffic ticket issues..that was the best we have seen on the NG in
the 3 years since Ive been posting.


Phil Scott

 

Here's a quote from this thread that I didn't write:

"It's not about right/wrong, not about safety, traffic tickets are a tax,
plain and simple. Just power freaks with inflated egos justifying their
paychecks. As such, it doesnt matter if you deserved the ticket or not,
just bend over and take it in the ass like a good citizen."

If the above doesn't imply that tickets are about revenue and nothing else,
what does it imply?

ab

 

Since speeding is a crime, along with running stop signs, and running over
pedestrians, I would have to say that the police are doing REAL police work.
The last time I checked it was just over 40,000 fatalities a year for car
accidents in the USA. The FBI reported the over 16,000 people were
murdered. Looking at the numbers real quick it seems to me that the police
should be focusing more on the traffic violators than they do now. How else
are they going to reduce the number of violators if they don't arrest them.

But it is too bad that it does become an revenue source rather than it going
to some victims rights group or something.

 

Sure there is.

I too wish that LEO's busted people for doing other unsafe things more
often than they seem to. I agree that often busting for speed is the
easy way out.

Me too.

OK, you're riding fast on a mountain road with obscure driveways on it.
Technically, you get to be right that the difference in speed is the
problem if a car pulls out of one of these driveways, but if the car's
speed relative you the roadway is zero, there is certainly a maximum
safe speed on that piece of road.

They should also target the guy going 90 if everyone else is going 50,
wouldn't you say?

You can hope all you want, but if it becomes more expensive *I* think
your government will just find a way to get it funded.

I think it's more important to figure out how to avoid being stopped in
the first place.

In the town where I live, local police receive complaints from residents
about speeding on a given piece of road. Nearly always, they put out a
radar display first to remind drivers of the speed limit and show them
their own speed. A few days later, if a few numbskulls still don't get
it, they place a couple of motocops out to issue a few tickets. They do
take speeding seriously, but they usually give people a reasonable
chance of avoiding tickets first.

I do realize not every police force does this.

ab

 

That was one mans view...not the comon view...and in the case of that one
man Im sure he would agree that some tickets are justified. ymmv

Phil Scott

 

Well, if you're talking about "Rider's Edge," which is the only Harley-Davidson
hosted MRC curriculum authorized by the MSF, then the instructor/coach who gave
such a speech would still be freelancing outside the curriclum, and should be
either re-trained, reprimanded, monitored, or replaced.

I'm all for additional manufacturers joining the MSF, contributing to the MSF,
and promoting the MSF. Aprilia and Ducati are two recent additions to the group.
If they want to go further and encourage their dealers to utilize their own
retail space for the implementation of additional MSF-curriculum courses over
and above the strained and minimal resources allocated by local government, and
provide motorcycles and helmets and classroom supplies for such classes, I say,
more power to them.

Having labored in a system that pays scant heed to the needs of the students,
instructor/coaches, range aides, and administrators of the course and instead
enriches the institutional "sponsors" (i.e. the local community college system)
for the past 13 years, I'm pleased to see an alternative and some competition to
the fat and lazy college programs.

Tim

 

Do not mistakenly get the impression that I am the enemy of MSR courses nor
do I discourage anyone from taking the course.. On the contrary, I have been
present for the delivery of new motorcycles to the custumers.. I have
advised many to first take the course before they are exposed to the dangers
of the highway and street.. Then for them to find that mentor.. I have also
mentored quite a few ..Yeah.. there are a lot of "hacks" who will cause a
rookie to pick up bad habits.. There are more who would be delighted to help
a rookie to develop the survival skills..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

LOL.. this is one of the most educational threads in a long time.. Just look
at the benefits I have gained here.. A complete course of defending a ticket
in court.. A background and competency examination for LEO's.. A spelling
course.. And a course in motorcycle safety along with a motorcycle handling
experience.. Damn.. don't tell me that usenet doesn't serve a purpose.. Oh..
and the mention of Abbe Hoffman was interesting, as well..LMAO.. Thanks
guys.. I have thoroughly enjoyed..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

YAH.... (I think) LOL