SYD: Tolls

HEADS UP - ALERT FOR ACTION

Cashless tolling on the Cross City Tunnel may result in a protest ride
when it opens.

A "Show of Strength" to induce good Television coverage of tolling issues.

To be discussed at next MCC meeting, June 6

Meeting with Minister for Roads this week.

Await outcomes before going crazy, but the outcomes may make us go crazy.

Please digest the following points and communicate them to your members.Stay
Tuned - more in one week.


Failure in transport planning has brought us to this.
-----------------------------------------------------

Motorcycles were not considered in traffic plans and have been
forgotten in government negotiations for privately run toll roads.

This is why motorcycles have been tolled as cars since the 1986
agreement for the Harbour Tunnel pushed up ALL tolls. We just got lost
in the shouting about higher tolls.

Now we can correct some of the failures to make provisions for
motorcycles.

Some organisations will resist change, but the facts are very clear,
motorcyclists have been marginalised for years.

NSW Government holds the contracts for toll roads - it is a policy
issue and hence a voters issue.

Toll rates for motorcycles are too high.
----------------------------------------

A family sedan is no more a heavy truck than a motorcycle is a
family sedan.

Differential toll rates exist between cars and trucks, but not
between cars and motorcycles in NSW.

One-Quarter of the car rate is the fair and reasonable toll rate
for motorcycles.

This rational figure is based upon road wear, space occupancy,
congestion and clean air considerations.

Prescribed toll schedules [the ones the govt agreed with the toll
operators - ZJ] fail to list motorcycles.

Motorcycles are an afterthought.

Motorcyclists are happy to pay a toll.
--------------------------------------

As long as the toll rate is reasonable AND that we are not charged extra
administrative fees.

E-tags don't work for most motorcycles
----------------------------------------

The supplied E-tags are not fit for the purpose sold.

Check out the 'Terms and Conditions' for the use of E-tags, no
mention of how to use them on motorcycles [but plenty of mention about
how you are liable if you don't fit them exactly as instructed - ZJ]

Advertising of E-tags to riders is misleading and fails to disclose
problems

E-tag is not weatherproof, is affected by vibration and heat e.. If
it fails due to weather damage, it costs you

Dangerous to carry upon ones person due to shattering to shards
on impact,

Cannot be mounted to most motorcycles and hence can't be aimed
correctly at the antenna

Fails to read due to inability to aim it correctly, hence further
administration costs charged to you

Riders try to use them, but are forced into unsafe practices, such
as:-
riding one-handed through the toll plaza, waving the tag until it
changes the taffic light colour
placing it in a jacket pocket (the casing shatters into shards on
impact and can easily penetrate the body)-
Using an armband pouch - this places the rider at risk due to
windage rotating the pouch and having it interfere with arm movement and
hence control of the motorcycle - worst on sportsbikes. Too tight causes
numbness. It also defeats the purpose of protective gear, providing a
point impact on the upper arm. These are dangerous

The MCC of NSW has worked with the RTA and E-tag suppliers and
industrial designers to assist solving the problem [and the RTA admits
that they haven't managed to make a bike-safe etag - ZJ]

No suitable E-tag exists anywhere in the world.

Alternative proposals for cashless tolling demand additional fees for not
-------------------------------------------------------------------------
using an E-tag
----------------

Toll road operators are demanding riders pay for failure to use an
unsuitable E-tag

The toll road operator expects riders to pay $1.60 per trip for
administration, in addition to the toll

This is gouging

It is misuse of market power. The E-tag is not fit for purpose.

Photographic methods are enforcement tools being used inappropriately.

Use of photographic enforcement tools means we don't pay a toll,
but buy an indemnity against prosecution.

This is back to front as NO MEANS OF PAYING is provided


Any protest will be a display of strength of numbers, NOT to inconvenience
other drivers, particularly emergency or commercial traffic.

What can a protest achieve?
Publicity and public outcry to publicise the issues.

About what?

The toll rate needs fixing to a fair and reasonable level.
Despite all other problems with accounts and tolls, this issue
is PRIME. It stems from failure of public policy to include
motorcycles in transport planning The failure to provide a
suitable tolling method follows on from this.

Secondary are the issues about goods not fit for purpose, no suitable
electronic tolling method for motorcycles, additional fees for inability to
comply - so why the hell should we have to pay for this failure? There is a
good base of commercial law for those issues, but toll rate remains first
issue.

 

It'll never work, Zebee. Gotta play 'em at their own game!

It's interesting to note how people seem to get so worked up over tunnels
though. Can we throw in all the other injustices motorcycles are currently
copping as well as the soon to be proposed ones too?

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 25 May 2005 05:00:58 GMT

On its own, never. Ask the Vics... But if you do the spadework
beforehand, and use this as one tool amongst many..,

Mind you, as I expect that a turnout that *doesn't* block something will
not be listened to, and as the only way to make a decent block is to do
it during working hours, and as bikers won't do anything that remotely
inconveniences them... My personal belief is that it's not going to
help.

We shall see what the MCC meeting decides. I think mass protests are
useless without a mass (and useless with one!), and I can't see Sydney
bikers putting themselves out even if it is about money!

Want to list them?

After all, people may be trying to do things about them.

And could certainly use some help, so state which ones are the ones you
are really interested in and then people working on them can contact
you, right?

Zebee

 

Does it have to be during business hours? Why not on a Sunday afternoon?
That way you probably have the greatest number of bikes available to attend
and a pretty large public audience for the 6pm TV news, especially during
winter months.

Nev..
'03 ZX12R

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 25 May 2005 16:22:08 +1000

I don't personally, although with a lot of spadework they can be part of
a strategy.

But I'm a delegate to the MCC doing my job.

Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 25 May 2005 16:48:36 +1000

Depends.

I believe that the MCC hope that a protest showing number of people
affected will do the job. Which means you are betting on getting a lot
of bikes there. So doing it on a weekend on a dry day maximises your
chances of that.

And the powers that be know it. Whereas getting a lot of people to
actually put themselves out and spend money and effort makes a much
bigger hit. Because it is much harder to do.

I believe that 1000 bikers on a Monday 9am would make a much bigger
impact where it matters than 5000 on a Sunday. Hell even 500 would.

Zebee

 

Was just about to suggest this

 

The way Sydney toll roads are structured, I'm not sure that
there's a location that 100-500-1000-whatever bikes would
cause a newsworthy disruption on a Sunday afternoon.

The bits that get clogged up on Sunday afternoons are the
entry points to greater Sydney, and a couple of internal
bottlenecks. The Sydney-Newcastle freeway gets busy southbound
late afternoon, as does the Spit Bridge route off the
peninsula. Neither of those are near any points of protest
though.

We could sit on the Harbour Bridge or Tunnel or in the new
tunnel or something, but on Sunday, the world would just
re-route around us.


As Zebee says, 500 bikes on Monday morning would have a
better effect, but we're apathetic bastards here in Sydney.
If it takes a visit from the Melbourne mob for us to organise
an ausmoto dinner, what makes you think we'll get off our
arses to hold up some traffic?!


GB

 

Isn't this a good thing?
For those of us that have Etags, the cash lanes are a pain in the arse.
I think the cashless tolls are a good idea. Actually they suck, but out of
cashless tolls and cash tolls, cashless wins.

 

I would think the media and powers that be only care about the absolute
numbers, not the degree of difficulty with which they were attained. One is
objective, the other subjective... you're not in a position to be subjective.

Nev..
'03 ZX12R

 

Yes, but only when they come up with an etag that works on motorcycles
properly(that is safe for the rider and will work in all weathers) or some
other model for payment that doesn't discriminate against motorcycle riders
by adding extra processing fees for using photos instead of electronic IDs.
It should be as easy for motorcyclists as it currently is for car users, and
currently it is not.

Not making bikes pay the same toll as cars would be an improvement.

Al
(Not a big toll user anyway)

 

I would think that if one bloke managed to do himself in sufficiently
badly that it held up a significant number of peak hour punters, you'd
get telly cameras showing up. Its all relative.

GB, leave my relatives out of this.

 

Dunno what Vic's up to but I agree with the latter.

Fair enough.

I dunno. I think a well thought out, planned and publicised protest would
work. I'd like to see the issues addressed that not only affect us but
other motorists as well, such as casual users and having to pay extra when
their technology fails, which would help to lessen any public and media
backlash. I'd also like to see the other issues (below) that we face as
motorcyclists riding on the back of it. Phrases such as revenue raising,
discrimination and environmentally friendly seem to be in favour at the
moment and should used accordingly.

As for attendance. If the Celebration of Australian Motorcycling was
anything to go by then I'd opt for a weekend ride through _all_ of the
local toll points followed by a meet with speeches, bands, food, drinks,
socialising and the like. Have a contingency plan in case they scare the
Lions Club off again!

If the powers that be call for a hard hitting, kneejerk, piss off people,
approach then I'd go for opening day, one lane full of parked bikes at each
entry, during opening and both peak times. Either way, I'll be there.

Umm...
Unfair CTP prices
Parking
Front plates
Sticker tax (my cars don't have to have them)
and associated unRandom roadBlock Testing
Extra licensing costs (compulsary user pays training for cars too)
RTA and other Gumbyment departments refusing to communicate (presuming they
still aren't but are consulting other motorist groups)
0.02 BAC for motorcyclists

No probs! The reply-to email eventually gets me, or my from: name bit sent
at bigponds company domain will get me sooner. Big has my phone number.

 

Maybe in NSW, but not in Victoria! That's why 40/250 motorcyclists,
depending on which thread you believe, of the 200,000+ licenced riders
in the state protested last week.
At least CityLink's toll schedule recognises a motorcycle as half a car,
though.
- sanbar

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 25 May 2005 13:40:20 GMT

Being worked on. THe MCC has been talkign to the MAA for a while,
exploring different options and hammering about the unfairness. I think
there are facts and figures on the MCC site about the injury and claim
rates. Persuading the govt to give up revenue is ski resort in hell
time, but stopping them increasing premiums is possible, as is getting
them to offer different kinds of rego such as solo seat and dirtbike.

Being worked on. I believe bikes using loading zones is just about a
done deal, and the agreement with councils about parking parallel to the
kerb near intersections, required bike parking in multistories and
shopping centres, and general bike parking standards is in the works and
maybe half way through.

Being worked on. The AMC is developing a strategy to deal with the
National Transport mob who are the state transport ministers dealing
with this. The big driver is the bod from Vic who is apparently an
argumentative bastard whose mode of operation is to get all aggro about
wanting front plates and the other transport ministers don't care so
give it to him to shut him up. They are being lobbied by the various
state lobby groups. I suspect that what will kill this isn't work by
rider groups, but the sheer impracticality.

Being worked on. The EPA have been told to pull their head in by
parliament and get it right, the courts have thrown out some prosecutions.
I think they are keeping quiet while they work out what to do. the MCC
is still collecting stats, so anyone who gets booked for not having a
sticker or for excessive noise should contact the MCC.

Being worked on. This one's harder because the cops are difficult to
deal with. It will probably have to be done via questions in Parliament
which is a bloody glacial process. The Hornsby cops are anti-bike -
witness their behaviour at the recent Mt White show - and so are eager
to pull these roadblocks so as to wave their dicks at riders. MCC
letters asking why the discrimination and why they aren't working with
riders for road safety the way other commands are have been met with
silence.

Don't know what's being done about this.

Being worked on. This is an on again off again thing. Was almost
there, then they changed ministers and the RTA backed off. I believe
the memorandum of understanding is about to be accepted, but if not then
it's back to Parliament which is the only stick you can beat them with.

Being worked on. Plenty of submissions and complaints on this one, and
it doesn't seem to have surfaced again. IT's part of the RTA thing
above really, trying to get them to agree to consult formally which
makes it a lot harder for them just to do things like this. THe paper
trail required by community consultation processes means they have to
work a bit harder to shaft said community. Won't stop them, but may
make them think a bit more before they do it and do it less often.

OK. WHich one really gets you the most? If you have a pet peeve them I
can give your details to the bods doing that, else can I say "here's
someone who wants to help, which section needs someone?"

The only one I know needs a co-ordinator at the moment is compulsory
headlights on for all vehicles which the feds are pushing, and that's
not on your list

I think that the RTA consultative committee and posible the 3rd party
people need bods to go to meetings with RTA and MAA and put the biker's
point, but I'm not sure.

If meetings aren't your thing, then can you do stuff like write briefing
papers, sort through stats, write press releases, give talks to councils
and schools, wade through research and write summaries? Can you run a
group of people, giving them jobs and making sure they are done? Those
are the sorts of things i can think of that are needed, there are
probably others I don't know of. If you can think of things you can do
that would be useful, then go for it and offer them.

Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 26 May 2005 00:15:29 +1000

Buried down in the report in The Age was a note that using photos would
mean a $1.60 processing cost. If that applies to bikes, doesn't that
mean they aren't paying half toll?

Zebee

 

I don't know why people insist on using the number of licenced riders when
they're giving statistics or making a point. The only valid statistic is the
number of road registered motorcycles.

Nev..
'03 ZX12R

 

I got sent this last week:

http://www.mightymedia.com.au/~bigiain/SCT.jpg

It sort of shows the right spots to "accidentally fall down".

Now all we need is some volunteer "faller downers". Whats Shadow up to
these days? Anyone seen Zeke lately? Maybe Aido doesn't even need to
fall down, he could just have a string of held up Taragos behind him
blocking traffic...

;-)

big

 

It is easy. I never carry my tag, I get flashed everytime, but I'm still
only charged the normal rate.

Hell yeah. Or even better no toll (since we are efficient enviro friendly
road users of course

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 26 May 2005 19:09:14 +1000

Now you are.

It is likely that inthe e-tag only tunnels this will not be true, and
also likely that it may no longer be true elsewhere.

Zebee