SYD: St John's course December

For a multitude of reasons.

Yes, it may seem that way, though I note below you answer many of the
reasons as to why/why not they are useful.

Yes, this is true, you even made me ride at the back of a Ulitilies ride cos
I had more cc than the whole ride put together....

Yes and no. It would depend on whether the course is useful with out a
certificate, if the course is a fundraiser for another organisation, if the
information being taught is current practice/best practice and if that
information is available else where (geography vs training body).

It was being pushed as a "specialist" course early on in the discussion,
that seems to have dropped off.

I have lots of people who I have known for years telling me their opinions
on things, that is hardly a conclusive reason to "fall into line".

What, like not actually following current/best practice/legislation as in
accountability and professionalism?

So, you can see there is a benefit in obtaining a certificate.

Does that mean not undertaking training, or undertaking training that comes
with out a certificate?

H

 

Well, go on then, give the reasons.

I do try to think beyond, "this is my opinion, and if you don't agree,
you are a dickhead".

That was back in the days that a Kwaka 6 was a seriously big bike.

Can we assume that the general participants of aus.moto actually do ride
motorcycles?

If we can take that as a starting point, then the course is potentially
useful, in my opinion.

It is, at the price, hardly a fund raiser for anybody.

I dunno about current/best practice, but it sounded logical and sensible
to me.

Only because it wasn't, afaik, being picked on for not being specialist.

I dunno how many courses you have attended where the mechanics, as well
as the pros and cons, of removing a crash helmet have been gone into
serious detail.

I have only attended two such courses, one, many years ago, organised by
the ACU for track marshals, and then this "specialised" Red Cross course.

The course also deals with situations where the ambos aren't 10 minutes
away, and you don't have a first aid kit.

It deals with the "traffic management" and safety aspects related to a
motorcycle accident, out of the city.

Fine. Don't fall into line. But don't carp about there not being a
certificate, 'cos that is just bullshit.

Yes, exactly.

Accountability and professionalism are just weasel words for the buggers
can sue you.

Joe Soap citizen, without any certificates, only has to behave and act
as a "reasonable" person, but, as soon as they have some bit of paper in
their back pocket, the rules change. :-(

A certificate of attendance..... I really don't think you were rabbiting
on about an attendance cert.

Just in case I have been unclear, I don't give a toss for certificates.

If I think a course is worth doing, and especially if folk I know
recommend that course, I'll maybe do it, but, if it becomes part of a
possible paper chase after something goes pear shaped, I might well give
a false name. ;-)

regards,
CrazyCam

 

How long do you have? There are multiple papers/journal
articles/professional organisations position statements on it. I have
already acknowledged your comments that you have listed.

Do you feel that this was not the current situation?

...and in terms of cc : weight still up there!

Yes, and I still stand by what I wrote above.

Courses on any number of topics are potentially useful to the participants
of aus.moto, in my opinion.

Why? If there is no certification of the course, then, why not?

That's sorta was what I am saying.....

? You'll have to explain that one.

You'll need to define "serious" detail. Is this provided in hand outs,
hands on demos, discussion of anatomy and observation of tissue damage, risk
analysis, use of level of consciousness, change in response to stimulus,
change in swelling, patency of airway, blood loss.......

Where does this course that is being advertised fit in? It was my
understanding you had taken part in it? Or have St J taken over the
deployment of it? Did the two offer certificates, ensuring a level of
competence?

Good, they can be several hours away and a first aid kit can be exhausted by
then as well.

As any first aid course should do, imnsho. Danger should be considered very
importantly.

Only to you. Your argument is yet to convince me, and the tone you are
employing to deflect my concerns isn't making your position any stronger.

? You wanted the qualification, but didn't want any of the responsibility?

No, not at all. If I am paying someone for information, services, and the
like, I want to be sure I am getting what I pay for, and for me a
certificate (of some description) is one of many ways I can be satisfied in
that respect.

...And that is wrong how?

Are you talking about bikes and first aid, or is a too long a bow to extend
it to say, electrical installations, gas fittings, surgery...?

You never asked me what I was rabbiting on about! So there is no
certificate of attendance either?

Yet, you see the benefit in them for getting a discount or other "benefit".

My, my, what do they tell you in these meetings?

Hammo

 

That might get tricky as I probably won't include any reports that are
provided by those outside of peer reviewed sources, not to mention the
qualitative/quantitative issues comparing certified vs non-certified
courses.

H

 

Hammo wrote:


I've changed my mind.

Not enough to pursue this pointless discussion any father.

Nor do I have any more interest in it.

Do I?

No, no, the weekend course to become a brain surgeon is over in the U.S.
some place.

My mistake there, I typed Red Cross, when I should have typed St.Johns.

Fine. Good for you.

If it makes you happy, chalk it up as a win for you.... <shrug>

regards,
CrazyCam

 

What?? So all this time you've been making assertions as to the worth
or otherwise of first aid courses aimed at an audience of
motorcyclists with no peer approved journal published evidence with
which to substantiate your comments!!

Nev..

 

I only asked why doesn't it have a certificate attached?

I didn't expect a Spanish Inquisition!

H

 

No, I was being serious. I consider the things listed above as "serious"
detail (and far from comprehensive). You asked what first aid courses I had
attended and what detail they went into......

A mistake, fair enough.

As I stated many posts ago, I question courses that don't have certification
attached. Apart from your opinion as it being something that is worthwhile,
you would seem to be annoyed that I don't take your word for it being so.
Why would I chalk it up as a win? You have one view, I've another....

H

 

You could slap it on a wound to try and control the bleeding.

Fraser

 

When I did my Emergency First Responder course for my rescue diver qual I got a
shiny plastic card that I can show someone that is bleeding to death. I'm sure
they will be impressed.

Fraser

 

See! You have a shiny plastic card... I have a cloth patch.

There are lots of courses out there without certificates ;-)


G-S

 

At least your cloth patch would soak up some blood. My card would only be good
if the victim was a 1%er wanting a few last lines of meth before they shuffled
off the mortal coil.

Fraser

 

Sounds useful to me... many motorcyclists regard Harley Davidsons as
exceptionally good boaty anchors, so I'd expect that you'd run into the
odd 1%er near his 'boat anchor' as you scuba dived [1]


G-S


[1] It might be hard for them to snort it off the shiny plastic card
beford it dissolved though [2]

[2] Ignoring the whole issue of needing to hold their breath anyway!

 

To me, a certificate means two things:

a) the organisation providing the course has probably had to meet some
minimum standards and are more likely to be accredited trainers.

b) I have a higher degree of confidence that the person holding the
certificate is more likely to know what they are doing, as opposed so
someone simply asserting that they know what they are doing.

 

Yep, that is pretty much it.

Those trained, meet a minimum level and are capable and competent.

H

 

But the course isn't certified and is being touted as "specialist".

Why does someone need to produce the certificate? It is about the course
being certified, i.e. the person has reached a minimum standard of
care/skill/competence. You keep doing the training until you are.....

H

 

If only that was the case in real life. I wonder how many
backhoe/bobcat/tipper operators (and others) I've met with
certificates from "reputable" places whose skill level was such that
they were virtually unemployable.
As Cam said, the world has gone certificate mad, to the extent that
there is virtually no value in them except for the paper they are
written on.

 

Yeah, it sucks to have standards.

H

 

Now that's just plain silly
what does suck is the huge pressure on those tutoring to allow
marginal passes which dependent on the thing being certified may well
cost a body part or life . Speaking personally the expectation of a pass
is often subject to over confidence in the system which is and will
continue to be greedy and corrupt .

 

A kid got bitten by a death adder here last week, and his mother knew
to get a compression bandage on him and to the nearest hospital, who
then shipped him off to Dubbo base. They were skeptical that it was a
death adder at all, despite the swab, because he displayed no symptoms
until they took his bandage off.

I was rather impressed that his mother did so well, given that I have
the same piece of paper she had, and yet I would have been running
around like a headless chicken (if I hadn't already fainted).

I get paid $16 extra a week for having a first aid certificate, but
it's utterly useless. However, work required me to take it. Because
everyone's got to be a building warden, a fire warden, and first aid
certificated. We can all wear the orange hard hat and direct everyone
else! Wheeee!