Stunned.

Bob Scott · Oct 11, 2004

The Older Gentleman said:

I found that while googling.
Click to expand...

I found it in the record cabinet, neatly filed under 'H'...

If I could find my turntable I might even listen to it.

Andy Clews · Oct 11, 2004

Thus spake The Older Gentleman unto the assembled multitudes:

IIRC, the loss rate of the F104 in the Luftwaffe was horrendous.
Click to expand...

[...]
That was a truly dreadful aeroplane.....
Click to expand...

It looked good, though (IMHO). It was my favourite model plane for
whooshing around the room when I was a sprog, having dogfights with my
brother's Phantom.

Tim · Oct 11, 2004

In message

The said:

I found that while googling.
Click to expand...

It's quite funny in places.
--
Tim two#21, YGL#3 & BOTAFOT#84

Due to the limitations of current email, the lip movements may be
out of synchronisation as you move your finger under the text while reading.

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Tim · Oct 11, 2004

Lozzo said:

The Older Gentleman says...

It's hilarious, I listened to it when I stayed with Jas over christmas
last year
Click to expand...

Ah Lozzo, just the bloke. I saw an immaculate CB250RS today. It was "X"
reg letter, so that's early 80s isn't it. Even the engine cases were
still glossy (and no it wasn't just wet with oil).
--
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Tim · Oct 11, 2004

In message said:

"The Older Gentleman" muttered

...does anorak up.... The Starfighter gets a bad press, which is only
Click to expand...

[snip static discharge]

I believe NASA have one or two still in service.
--
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Lozzo · Oct 11, 2004

Tim says...

Ah Lozzo, just the bloke. I saw an immaculate CB250RS today. It was "X"
reg letter, so that's early 80s isn't it. Even the engine cases were
still glossy (and no it wasn't just wet with oil).
Click to expand...

Was it in Witham, Essex?

Klaatu · Oct 13, 2004

Brother-in-Law's girlfriend's father[1] came round today, to look at
the KH.[2]

"Very nice, but what does it sound like?"

It started second kick!

I bet it wouldn't have done, without an admiring audience.

[1] Complicated, innit. He's a tank mechanic for the Bundeswehr.
Click to expand...

Who ?

Salad Dodger · Oct 13, 2004

[1] Complicated, innit. He's a tank mechanic for the Bundeswehr.
Click to expand...

Who ?
Click to expand...

The brother-in-law's girlfriend's father.

--
| ___ Salad Dodger
|/ \
_/_____\_ GL1500SEV/CBR1100XXX/KH500A8/TS250C
|_\_____/_| ..73063../..16589.../..3180./.19406
(>|_|_|<) TPPFATUICG#7 DIAABTCOD#9 YTC#4 PM#5
|__|_|__| BOTAFOT #70 BOTAFOF #09 two#11 WG*
\ |^| / IbW#0 & KotIbW# BotTOS#6 GP#4
\|^|/ ANORAK#17 IbB#4
'^'

Champ · Oct 13, 2004

On Sun, 10 Oct 2004 18:37:39 +0100,

In light of
the subsequent operational history of the F-104G in the Luftwaffe...
Click to expand...

"G for Germany"

Champ · Oct 13, 2004

"The Older Gentleman" muttered

...does anorak up.... The Starfighter gets a bad press, which is only
partly justified. There were a lot of losss in German service, partly
because the Germans used more F104s than pretty much any other airforce,
except the USAF. But the per hour rate of loss was much higher than
other users. As Timo points out, training was done in the US so using
the machine in Western Europe set up a set of problems that weren't
always identified in the early training. The main reason for the German
problems, I think, is in the use to which the aircraft was put though.
It was designed as a transonic high altitude bomber interceptor - the
Germans put it to use as a low level nuclear bomber.
Click to expand...

I thought the other problem was that the German's wanted an
all-rounder/all-weather plane, and loaded it with lots of extra kit.
[This analysis gleaned from "Captain Lockheed and the Starfighters"]

That short stubby
wing was great for highspeed flight, but it was less good at manoevers
as it was very draggy at high angles of attack - you could stall the
thing at several hundred miles an hour and literally fall out of the
sky.
Click to expand...

"Wanna buy a Starfighter? Buy a field and wait".

platypus · Oct 13, 2004

Champ said:

I thought the other problem was that the German's wanted an
all-rounder/all-weather plane, and loaded it with lots of extra kit.
Click to expand...

What the German Navy actually wanted was the Buccaneer. Instead, they got a
lawn dart.

http://www.fly-navy.de/jets/f104.html

Note use of term "concepted". I'm not sure if this was intentional, or
supposed to be "conceived".

platypus · Oct 13, 2004

Andy said:

"platypus" and Champ muttered

Technical knowledge from comedy record shock horror! Yes, I think
this is basically correct.

There was an immense amount of political maneouvering over the F104
European deals. Roland Beaumont (Lightning test pilot) always
maintained that the UK government had actively gone out of their way
to sabotage the efforts of BAC and HS to sell Lightnings and Buccs to
the various Euro airforces....
Click to expand...

As ever, the British Government found hanged by their tongues from American
Government arseholes.

He may have the odd axe to grind (!) but he had flown an early
Starfighter, and hated it. Beaumont found that subsonic handling
properties were unpleasant and particularly dangerous in take-off and
landing configuration and were not compatible with bad weather
operation. He predicted that the F-104 was likely to suffer a high
accident rate in operation....
Click to expand...

Well, *look* at the thing: stubby little wings that are wonderful at Mach
2.5, but at low speed, you're going to need a lot of power, and a ludicrous
pitch-up of the nose, to keep flying. /Anhedral/, FFS. And I wouldn't be
surprised if it could be tempted into a superstall...

I like "favourized".... Like listening to a Bush speech, it is...
Click to expand...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/cartoons/stevebell/0,7371,1325238,00.html

platypus · Oct 13, 2004

Andy said:

"platypus" muttered

Easily. Such high wing loading...

"In June of 1958, English Electric test pilot Roland Beaumont test
flew an F-104A. He was quite critical of the Starfighter. He found the
aircraft to have inadequate directional damping, evidenced by a
persistent low-amplitude short-period oscillation throughout most of
the flight regime. The use of a thin, highly-loaded wing had a severe
adverse effect on the turning maneuverability. There were excessive
break-out forces of the power-controlled ailerons. At high angles of
attack, the high-set stabilator would tend to stall in the wing
downwash, and a departure into a flat spin was often the result.
Recovery from such a flat spin was usually possible only if there was
sufficient height so that increased engine power could be applied to
accelerate the aircraft back into controlled flight. Beaumont found
that subsonic handling properties were unpleasant and particularly
dangerous in take-off and landing configuration and were not
compatible with bad weather operation. He predicted that the F-104
was likely to suffer a high accident rate in operation."
Click to expand...

Well, any fool could guess most of that, just by looking at the thing. It's
a very stylish aircraft, but only for dropping from B-52s and landing at
back at Muroc...

platypus · Oct 13, 2004

Andy said:

"platypus" muttered

The US didn't use the Starfighters for long....just punted them all
off on the Europeans....

Heh. Now you're talking. X15, what a bit of kit.
Click to expand...

Indeed:

http://pipi.hu/fotok/sorozat/1/X-15.JPG

Although I was thinking more in terms of the X-3 Stiletto...

Tim · Oct 13, 2004

Lozzo said:

Tim says...

Was it in Witham, Essex?
Click to expand...

No, just off Bloomsbury Sq. central London.
--
Tim two#21, YGL#3 & BOTAFOT#84

Due to the limitations of current email, the lip movements may be
out of synchronisation as you move your finger under the text while reading.

tim dot ukrm2 at dsl dot pipex dot com

Lozzo · Oct 13, 2004

Tim says...

No, just off Bloomsbury Sq. central London.
Click to expand...

Weird, I was there this afternoon.

platypus · Oct 14, 2004

Champ said:

Are you sure that's the link you wanted to post?
Click to expand...

Heh. "Oops."

Grimly Curmudgeon · Oct 14, 2004

It was somewhere around Barstow, on the edge of the desert, when the
drugs began to take hold. I remember "platypus"

Indeed:

http://pipi.hu/fotok/sorozat/1/X-15.JPG
Click to expand...

Rockets don't suck.

--

Dave

GS 850 x2 / SE 6a
SbS#6 DIAABTCOD#16 APOSTLE#6 FUB#3
FUB KotL OSOS#12? UKRMMA#19 COSOC#10

Mike Fleming · Oct 18, 2004

Nigel Eaton said:

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Fr Jack

Salad Dodger said:

[2] A proper triple: not like your Hinkley rubbish.
Click to expand...

<pokes Dodger in eye>
Click to expand...

Is that allowed? He's a National Treasure y'know.
Click to expand...

Should be buried 6 feet under?

Can't spell "Hinckley" either.

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