Stop Helmet Laws Now...

Discussion in 'Bay Area Bikers' started by Larry xlax Lovisone, Nov 22, 2003.

  1. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Tim Morrow Guest

     
    Tim Morrow, Nov 24, 2003
    #81
    1. Advertisements

  2. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Tim Morrow Guest

    In Virginia a DOT halfshell would have sufficed in years past. In 2003, in
    spite of the fact that your DOT halfshell is perfectly legal for use on the road
    in Virginia, you MAY not wear it in the parking lot while riding your own
    motorcycle for the BRC, if you can believe that nonsense. They decided to
    require a 3/4 helmet as they put it "for liability reasons," in spite of the
    fact that they could not answer my question as to what they would do if one of
    our students crashed while wearing a 3/4 helmet and broke their jaw and all
    their teeth. Duh. Another example of bureaucratic idiocy in action.

    Long story short, the requirements vary from state to state program.

    Tim
     
    Tim Morrow, Nov 24, 2003
    #82
    1. Advertisements

  3. Andy, I admire your well worded, and well thought-out presentation,
    and even though I'm a big fan of full-face helmets, I don't think the
    law-makers focus on "fiscal responsibility" when passing helmet laws.
    I reason that if they did, there would abundant and readily available
    data to support this argument, and there appears not to be.

    The thing we do know about helmets and motorcycle riders is that in
    the event of a motorcycle incident, a helmet reduces the forces
    inflicted to the rider's head. A helmet is no "magic amulet". It
    simply uses physics to dissipate and absorb forces, thereby offering a
    measure of protection to the rider's head. In the vast majority of
    cases, the protection that is offered by a good helmet in a motorcycle
    incident is dramatic as compared to not wearing one. That's pretty
    well a no-brainer.

    For the benefit of some readers to help understand this, view Diagram
    1 below using a mono-space font such as Courier. Note that these
    diagrams are used to illustrate a point, and they do not correlate to
    measured impact, or to scale. Assume that the term "Force" is used as
    an amalgamation of force and type of impact.

    Diagram 1 - Injuries sustained by an unhelmeted rider in the
    event of a motorcycle incident, as related to
    "Force" of cranial impact.

    Force: 0.........1.........2.........3.........4.........5
    Injury: None Minor | Severe |-->
    abrasions | lacerations, |
    & | contusions |
    contusions | & fractures |
    | |
    Moderate Death
    lacerations,
    considerable
    contusions,
    & minor
    fractures

    When a helmet is used, the areas that are covered by the helmet will
    experience reduce "force", thereby resulting in a reduction or
    elimination of trauma to protected areas. See diagram 2 to see how the
    added element of energy absorption, a helmet, reduces or eliminates
    trauma on a "sliding scale" (i.e., no "magic" is involved, just the
    severity of trauma is reduced per force applied to the helmet.)

    Diagram 2 - Injuries sustained by a helmeted rider in the
    event of a motorcycle incident, as related to
    "Force" of cranial impact.

    Force: ..1.........2.........3.........4.........5........
    Injury: None Minor | Severe |-->
    abrasions | lacerations, |
    & | contusions |
    contusions | & fractures |
    | |
    Moderate Death
    lacerations,
    considerable
    contusions,
    & minor
    fractures

    As you can see, the type of incident that would result in "Moderate
    lacerations, considerable contusions, & minor fractures" on an
    unhelmeted rider ("Force" = 1.6 in diagram 1), will result in either
    no injury, or extremely minor abrasions and contusions when those same
    forces are applied to a helmet on a helmeted rider ("Force" = 1.6 in
    diagram 2, but trauma is dramatically reduced or eliminated). Note
    that if the impact is applied to an unprotected area, such as the chin
    for a rider who is wearing a helmet but not a full-face helmet, the
    energy is transmitted to the rider at full force and the same type of
    injury is incurred in the unprotected area as though no helmet was
    worn.

    It is also important to note that a helmet, not being a "magic
    amulet", can only _reduce_ or eliminate the injuries that are
    experienced in the vast majority of motorcycle incidents (according to
    the Hurt Report, the most comprehensive study of motorcycle incidents
    to date), but not in all cases. For example, diagram 2 shows that the
    type of force that would likely result in death for an unhelmeted
    rider ("Force" = 3.2 in diagram 1) may result in something harsher
    than "Minor abrasions & contusions" ("Force" = 3.2 in diagram 2). Also
    note that in even more severe incidents ("force" = 4.3) a helmeted
    rider would also experience severe trauma, and with still more "force"
    (5.2 in diagram 2), the helmeted rider is at risk of death.

    From available data, The Hurt Report being just one source of many, it
    is abundantly clear that a good helmet is a Good Thing(TM) to be
    wearing in the event of a motorcycle incident. I don't think that
    informed "helmet optional" people are arguing against this fact. And
    this fact remains true, regardless of whatever reason or excuse,
    legitimate or lame, lawmakers use to justify or rationalize the
    passing of a helmet law. The _real_ issues some people have with
    helmet laws _appear_ to fall into two broad categories:

    (1) People who simply do not want to wear a helmet (for what-
    ever reason, ranging from ignorance, to indifference, to
    placing a higher value on a specific fashion or style),
    and who are resentful of a law that obligates them to
    wear a helmet.

    (2) People who are concerned about the infringement of civil
    liberties, and/or the "properness" (for lack of a better
    word) of certain laws being passed. In these cases, it's
    not a helmet law _specifically_ that irks them, but other
    similarly "inappropriate" laws as well.

    My advice to people in Category 1: Who cares about a small number of
    winy bikers? Certainly not the majority of voters, nor their elected
    representatives. If you want to be more successful in your objective
    to repeal helmet laws, you must at least _appear_ to be someone who is
    fighting for a "greater cause", such as civil liberties, law reform,
    or something that affects a larger number of people than just a
    relatively small number of motorcyclists who don't want to wear
    helmets.

    My advice to people in Category 2: Read "The Art Of War," or become a
    top-notch salesman. One of the things you will learn in doing this is
    the futility of a head-to-head confrontation unless you have
    "overwhelming odds" in your favor. The rule of thumb for those odds is
    3:1 or better. If someone has data to support their argument, it's not
    just enough to challenge their data (you are at best breaking even),
    you need 3 times the data to counter their position and support your
    own. And this is a very challenging thing to do, so I recommend
    against this approach. Instead of engaging these things "head on",
    take a roundabout approach, and make it a constitutional issue, or one
    of law-reform, or civil rights/liberties. The "cause" affects most
    people in your country, so it merits more serious consideration. It
    just happens that its principles "extend" to helmet laws, which can be
    addressed later as part of the implementation of newly accepted
    principles that you may bring about.

    In my case, I wear a full-face helmet for all the obvious reasons, and
    I do so every time I ride (along with full professional riding gear).
    It does not matter to me that a law exists in my region that supports
    my values. I would be indifferent if a law was passed that prohibited
    the human consumption of feces, even though it should be every
    citizen's "right" to do so, if they wish. In my mind, it's a law
    that's not worth fighting against, even if I was rabid about
    law-reform or the infringement of civil liberties. There are bigger
    fish to fry, in this respect.

    -Steve Makohin | Reply to
    2000 BMW R1100S/ABS | (hotmail acct is spam catcher)
     
    Steve Makohin, Nov 24, 2003
    #83
  4. I thought it was required to have all signs and everything posted both ways?
    Or is that only an artifact of western Canada, a place I remember fondly,
    versus the eastern part, which is, as best I can tell, just as full of
    flatlanders as the eastern US is.

    Think so? Subjecting the worlds 6th or 7th largest economy from the worlds
    biggest economy leaves...Canada?

    Well, here we discover that California is about 13% of the total US economy.

    http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank28.html

    Here we discover the size of the US economy in relation to others.

    http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3621/WORLDEC.HTM

    Now, if we deduct 13% of the US economy from the US total, guess what we
    discover? That the US is still the largest economy in the world without
    California, who lands at about 7th on the list, right around the size of
    China.

    So...you are wrong. Subtract California from the US and the US still
    wins....oh...and another point? Even after deducting California from the US,
    the US economy is still an order of magnitude beyond the size of the
    Canadian economy. Pesky Canadians...thinking they are significant beyond
    being the breeders of good looking groupies for Tommy Lee.
     
    Troy the Troll, Nov 24, 2003
    #84
  5. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Ben Kaufman Guest

    Ben Kaufman, Nov 24, 2003
    #85
  6. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Alan Moore Guest

    Until you start having to pay realisitic prices for food. Bear in mind
    that we out here produce the bulk of your dairy products, your beef,
    your fruits and vegetables... Of course, you could buy more from
    Mexico, if you weren't worried about hepatitis.

    Presumably our gas prices would drop, and yours rise (as Nevada pays
    less for the stuff from the refinery up the road from me than I do)
    Maybe we'd even join OPEC!

    Al Moore
    DoD 734
     
    Alan Moore, Nov 24, 2003
    #86
  7. You also produce a nice chunk of our natural gas...something which the tree
    huggers don't ever want to talk about either. Drilling for oil and gas in
    the states! GASP! NO! As far as food....I dunno....I eat fine, kids aren't
    starving, and I doubt they have many cattle farms in Quebec.

    I say we go to WAR with OPEC, perfect reason for a war if I ever heard of
    one. Pax Americana.....
     
    Troy the Troll, Nov 24, 2003
    #87
  8. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Ben Kaufman Guest

    There is a tendency to confuse the literal definition of the word "freedom" in
    the dictionary with how it applies to the rights that citizens of a free country
    enjoy. The fact that a government imposes speed limits or helmet laws for safety
    purposes on public roads does not take a citizen's freedom away.

    However, you are right, we are loosing our freedom to safety. But, it's not
    helmet laws, it's the suspension of the fundamental rights our country is
    supposed to abide by to fight terrorism. That's where we are loosing REAL
    freedom. Is that right or wrong? That's certainly another thread... But this is
    the real challenge to freedom.




    Ben

    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/rockland_mc_riders
     
    Ben Kaufman, Nov 24, 2003
    #88
  9. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Odinn Guest

    That is NOT the report that was being referred to. You seem to have
    serious comprehension problems don't you.

    --
    Odinn

    '03 FLHTI ........... http://www.sloanclan.org/gallery/ElectraGlide
    '97 VN1500D ......... http://odinn-frigga.tripod.com/scoot
    Atlanta Biker Net ... http://www.atlantabiker.net
    Personal Homepage ... http://odinn-frigga.tripod.com
    Vulcan Riders Assoc . http://www.vulcanriders.org

    Fill in the blanks to reply
     
    Odinn, Nov 24, 2003
    #89
  10. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Ben Kaufman Guest

    They took a look at those who survived from both and the unhelmeted riders, on
    average, were much more severely injured:

    I mean, even if it was a little headache compared to a big headache, those
    hospital aspirin are expensive <g>


    ===================

    "Am J Public Health. 1996 Jan;86(1):41-5. Related Articles, Links


    Motorcycle helmet use and injury outcome and hospitalization costs from crashes
    in Washington State.

    Rowland J, Rivara F, Salzberg P, Soderberg R, Maier R, Koepsell T.

    Washington State Department of Health, Seattle, Wash., USA."


    "... Although unhelmeted motorcyclists were only slightly more likely to be
    hospitalized overall, they were more severely injured, nearly three times more
    likely to have been head injured, and nearly four times more likely to have been
    severely or critically head injured than helmeted riders. Unhelmeted riders were
    also more likely to be readmitted to a hospital for follow-up treatment and to
    die from their injuries..."
    ....
    PMID: 8561240 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]










    Ben

    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/rockland_mc_riders
     
    Ben Kaufman, Nov 24, 2003
    #90
  11. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Tim Morrow Guest

    Ben, the abstract of the study that you quoted referred only to unhelmeted
    riders who were admitted to the hospital. It did not (and neither has, nor will
    any study ever) include unhelmeted riders who die at the scene of the crash or
    who die while being evac'ed from the scene.

    If an unhelmeted rider survives long enough to make it to a trauma center, I
    have no doubt that he or she will receive more expensive medical treatment
    (whether paid for by the rider, the rider's insurance, the rider's family, or
    the other, insured user's of that trauma center, or (ultimately) the taxpayer)
    than that of the helmeted rider who is transported to the same trauma center
    under similar accident conditions. Similarly, I would expect an accident victim
    riding in shorts and flip-flops to require more expensive medical treatment than
    the rider wearing full race leathers with armor and and a back protector,
    armored gloves and articulated racing boots.

    I've never claimed that riding without a helmet will, in the event of an
    accident, result in less serious (or less expensive) injuries, on average, to a
    rider than riding with a helmet.

    In fact, I advocate that all riders be educated in the efficacy of proper
    protective riding gear, and then all ADULT riders be left to decide for
    themselves what level of risk they are willing to take.

    Just as I believe that I should be allowed to assume a greater risk by riding my
    motorcycle than I incur by driving my pick-up truck or my automobile to work, so
    too do I believe that it is none of the government's business whether I wear a
    helmet (or wear a seat belt, for that matter).
     
    Tim Morrow, Nov 24, 2003
    #91
  12. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Timberwoof Guest

    I thought it was required to have all signs and everything posted both ways?
    Or is that only an artifact of western Canada, a place I remember fondly,
    versus the eastern part, which is, as best I can tell, just as full of
    flatlanders as the eastern US is.

    Think so? Subjecting the worlds 6th or 7th largest economy from the worlds
    biggest economy leaves...Canada?

    Well, here we discover that California is about 13% of the total US economy.

    http://www.census.gov/statab/ranks/rank28.html

    Here we discover the size of the US economy in relation to others.

    http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/3621/WORLDEC.HTM

    Now, if we deduct 13% of the US economy from the US total, guess what we
    discover? That the US is still the largest economy in the world without
    California, who lands at about 7th on the list, right around the size of
    China.

    So...you are wrong. Subtract California from the US and the US still
    wins....oh...and another point? Even after deducting California from the US,
    the US economy is still an order of magnitude beyond the size of the
    Canadian economy. Pesky Canadians...thinking they are significant beyond
    being the breeders of good looking groupies for Tommy Lee.[/QUOTE]

    Pesky Americans, always inflating their own importance, to the extend of
    ignoring the rest of the world. The EU's economy is larger than that of
    the the US.
     
    Timberwoof, Nov 24, 2003
    #92
  13. Pesky Canadians...thinking they are significant beyond
    Last I looked, it was about the same size. But then someone who doesn't even
    know that subtracting the California economy from US economy STILL leaves
    the largest single economy in the world and an economy 10 times the size of
    Canada's can't be expected to be able to figure that one out either, eh?
     
    Troy the Troll, Nov 24, 2003
    #93
  14. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Ben Kaufman Guest

    Tim,

    I will try to find this information (probably on TG morning) . If we can locate
    the total # of people killed in MC accidents during that period and subtract
    the number of ER/hospital deaths (in the report) from it then we will see if
    this is a large or small percentage. Sound like a plan?



    Ben

    http://autos.groups.yahoo.com/group/rockland_mc_riders
     
    Ben Kaufman, Nov 24, 2003
    #94
  15. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Michael Fell Guest

    That's Canaduh Troy. Learn how to spell.:)


    Mike
     
    Michael Fell, Nov 24, 2003
    #95
  16. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Brennan Guest

    So preacheth Larry, on a quest to become a bigger troll than Hansteen.

    Ah well, at least it's on topic.
     
    Brennan, Nov 24, 2003
    #96
  17. Larry xlax Lovisone wrote:

    What a wonderful world it would be if only that was true!

    <snip>
     
    Michael R. Kesti, Nov 24, 2003
    #97
  18. <snip>

    While you made some good points, I believe that helmet laws are used
    by politicians to make political hay. Motorcyclists, being a relatively
    small and generally feared and disliked group, are a convenient target
    for politicians to make themselves look good in the eyes of the much
    larger group of non-motorcyclists.

    If it was truly about safety or cost then cagers would be required to
    wear helemts, too.
     
    Michael R. Kesti, Nov 24, 2003
    #98
  19. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Ron Guest

    snip

    One observation from the real world:

    If helmet laws are supposed to save the taxpayer's money, why didn't
    my taxes go down whem California passed their helmet law?

    Ron
     
    Ron, Nov 24, 2003
    #99
  20. Larry xlax Lovisone

    Ron Guest

    snip


    One observation from the real world: If the helmet law saved the
    taxpayers (meaning me and you) so much money money, why didn't my
    taxes go down when the California helmet law went into effect in '92?

    How about other states? Can anybody from a state that passed a helmet
    law report that their taxes have gone down?

    Or, from a state that repealed a helmet law, did your taxes go up?
    (attributable directly to the helmet law, of course)

    Ron
     
    Ron, Nov 24, 2003
    1. Advertisements

Ask a Question

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

You'll need to choose a username for the site, which only take a couple of moments (here). After that, you can post your question and our members will help you out.