Starter not starting occasionally

Bike in question: CBR600 F2

Sometimes my starter won't work. The first time it happened 2 weeks
ago, the instrument lights got dim, and the engine cranked once or
twice, very slowly, about 1Hz. After letting it sit for a day, it
started up just fine later and for many starts afterwards. Yesterday,
I rode 40 miles (far longer than my usual runs) and stopped for gas.
After filling up, I went to start... no go.

The sound is like "bzzz" of a door buzzer in the old movies. It's
coming from what I think is the battery under the seat; I can feel it
when I stick my hand under there. I'm guessing it's the starter
relay/solenoid that's giving up the ghost. Anyways, I was able to use
the 15 feet of downslope at the gas station to get the bike started
again, and I rode another 130 miles, and made it to my destination. I
then tried to start it... started right up, no hesitation, no problems.

Does this sound like a starter relay/solenoid problem? Are they easy
to fix/replace? Are there generic parts available?

Phil, Squid-in-Training

 

It sounds more like an absolutely fucked battery to me.

 

Bike in question: CBR600 F2

How old is the battery? Have you checked it under load to see if it
still provides the necessary amperage you need to turn over the starter?
sounds like your battery isn't holding a charge....for very long..

Fwed

 

How old is your battery? It's possible that the plates are all covered
with lead sulfate so the battery only takes what is called a "surface
charge". Batteries used for vehicles are different from stationary
batteries which have large hard metal plates. Instead, vehicle
batteries use soft porous lead in the plates to allow the electrolyte
to pentrate, soaking into the porous lead.

The battery will have enough beans to start the engine *once* and then
it goes dead when it's sulfated, because the electrolyte cannot
penetrate the hard sulfate to deep charge the battery.

There is also the possibility that humidity and road salt down there in
Florida have corroded the wiring connections so badly the starter
solenoid soesn't get enough voltage to hold the solenoid contacts
closed.

But my first bet is an old sulfated battery.

 

Sounds like a jammed or bad solenoid.
The lights dimming means the starter was drawing current.
The intermittant nature of the problem wispers that the battery has the

power, but something is locking the works somewhere.
The next time it happens 'bump` her once and try again.
If you get the start it's a problem in the mechanics, not the battery.
MadDog
"R75/5 Forever!"

 

This fault-finding chart will come in handy whether it's the battery or
something else:
http://electrosport.com/electrosport_fault_finding.html

To use such a diagram, you really want to know that your battery is good
first. You could take it somewhere and have them load-test it. If you
wanted to check it at home, I suggest:
1) if the battery is 5 or more years old, just replace it. I know that
there are people here that see this as an unnecessary expense ("Why
replace a perfectly good battery!?! My batteries last 1500 years!!!"),
but batteries _do_ age, and 5 years seems to be an age after which
batteries start to fail without prior warning.
2) check the battery case for swelling, cracks, etc. If it's bulging or
misshapen, replace it. If not, wipe the top off with a rag. Be careful
not to short-circuit the battery! If the terminals have junk on them,
clean it all off. Battery terminal cleaning is pretty straightforward,
and I imagine that instructions are easily available online, so I won't
go into that here.
3) If you know how to use a Volt-meter, go ahead and measure the rest
voltage of the battery (ideally without anything connected to it). As I
recall, a Voltage below about 12.7 indicates that the battery is not
fully charged. If you've just charged it, then you you need to figure
out why the battery isn't fully charged the problem might be the
battery, or it might be the charging system.

There's more that you can do, but the above checks are pretty quick and
usually reliable. Here's some more reading about lead-acid batteries. I
checked them over quickly for accuracy, and they seem about right
(though lots of the information is not directly relevant). As always,
caveat lector.
http://www.windsun.com/Batteries/Battery_FAQ.htm
http://xtronics.com/reference/batterap.htm

No matter what the problem is, you should inspect and clean all
accessible electrical connections (including frame ground/return lines!)
while you are in there checking your wiring. It's tedious but easy work,
and clean electrical connections help prevent all sorts of problems.

--
Later,
John



'indiana' is a 'nolnn' and 'hoosier' is a 'solkk'. Indiana doesn't solkk.

 

When it's not working, it's really not working. When it's working, it
works perfectly. There is no in-between or "weak" starting. It's
either very strong and reliable, or almost completely dead. I go up to
4 or 5 days without riding and it starts up just as strong as if I
start it after leaving it for one day.

 

I will check the battery. But I'm leaning away from that because the
vast majority of my trips are 2-mile trips, short enough to not
recharge the battery all that fully, and it starts up virtually every
time. It's also never had a problem starting up multiple times because
I don't notice that some moron has flipped my kill switch until I've
cranked it for a good 10 seconds or so...

That brings up another question. Generally speaking, how long should a
bike be able to crank on a fully-charged battery? IOW, should a bike
be able to crank for 30 straight seconds with the kill switch on?

I see what you mean by sulfated.

There's no road salt down here in inland Florida, so it's not likely
the problem. But the solenoids for the seat-release have gotten old
and don't retract all the way, so it's possible the starter solenoid
has too.

 

I think it's a bad solenoid, too. The lights are strong when I turn
the key to on, so I don't think the battery is weak or anything. I
jiggled a bunch of cables and stuff near the buzzing area to see if
anything would move, but it didn't help... maybe a tap would have done
the trick.

 

Thank you John for the informative post. I'll examine what I can with
my voltmeter when I get back into town.

 

Does anyone know if generic starter solenoids and relays are available
and are easy to fix? I am not keen at all to going to my local
impolite repair shop.

 

1) availability of 3rd-party spares varies by bike, and I don't remember
what sort of bike you have. Including quoted material, or re-stating the
relevant information, is helpful.

2) ease of installation/repair of components varies by bike. See #1, and
get the factory service manual if you don't already have it; it's an
invaluable service aid.

3) You aren't forced to purchase from your local shop, even if you want
genuine spares. For example, I've purchased Honda components for my
VFR750 (bodywork and a Reg/rect, respectively) from:
http://www.dynamohumm.com/Scripts/default.asp
http://ridenow.com/

There's lots of places out there, some better than others. Finding and
sorting them is left as an exercise for your search engine (this group's
archives, and bike-specific web-fora, often contain people's
recommendations on what shops are good or bad).

--
Later,
John



'indiana' is a 'nolnn' and 'hoosier' is a 'solkk'. Indiana doesn't solkk.

 

If you know for sure that the solenoid is NFG (not functionally good),
you might try a motorcycle salvage yard instead of a Honda $tealer$hip.

You could probably take the starter solenoid to some auto parts store
where there isn't a crowd standing in line demanding quick service and
if you could find some friendly old fart who's willing to help, maybe
he would look for a starter solenoid for you.

But, if you go to some busy store, and tell the guy behind the computer
that you're looking for a solenoid for your CBR600 F2 he's going to
tell you to go to a Honda dealer.

You might check the online catalog at www.denniskirk.com for
replacement solenoids and you might also try the Tucker Rocky online
catalog too.

You might try googling for generic solenoids in online electronics
supply catalogs, but you have to know what you need in terms of stud
sizes and the correct number of terminals for the solenoid coil.

Most car solenoids probably would have much larger main terminals than
the Honda solenoid would have. Car solenoids would probably have
5/16ths or even 3/8th's inch studs, while your Honda solenoid probably
has 1/4 inch studs for the main terminal that carry the battery power.

Then there is the solenoid coil grounding system. Some solenoids will
have a terminal for power input to the coil and a terminal for the
solenoid ground. Other solenoids will get the coil power from one of
the main terminals and use a ground wire to complete the circuit. Some
solenoids will have a power input wire to the solenoid coil and a
ground wire coming out of the relay coil.

So you need to know the input voltage, the stud sizes and the wiring
arrangement of the solenoid coil itself.

If you remove the starter solenoid and carefully inspect it, you may
find that it has some corrosion inside, or main contact arcing that
prevents it from making good contact.

Or, the problem might be at the starter button itself. Sometimes the
Mickey Mouse starter button won't be making good contact and that would
make the solenoid coil chatter.

If you take the starter switch apart to clean it, be careful you don't
lose any of the tiny parts inside. Honda won't sell them separately.

 

If you're traying to start the engine, and it's in a good state of
tune, it should start within about 5 seconds, even if it's cold. If it
doesn't immediately start, wait 15 or 20 seconds and crank for 5 more
seconds.

I was at a brake shop having my car's brake rotors reground and there
were two Mexicans there trying to start a Yamaha. They cranked that
poor thing continously for minutes at a time. I tried to explain to
them they they would be very unhappy if they had to buy a new starter
from the Yamaha $tealer$hip. They ignored my advice and kept on
cranking. The engine never started.

Extended cranking is not advisable due to heat buildup inside the
starter. It's probably about a 500 watt device, and you can imagine how
hot five 100 watt light bulbs can get. It's just that the starter heats
up a lot slower. It could conceivably melt the solder in the
commutator, and then where would you be? At the Honda $tealer$hip,
finding out that a new starter cost $750?

If you want to check the capacity of your battery, then check the
capacity of your battery in a logical way.

Suppose you have a fully-charged 8 ampere hour battery. It should
produce a continuous 8 amperes for an hour without the output voltage
dropping below 12 volts.

You could check your owners manual for the wattage of your head light
and tail lights and running lights and instrument lights and add all
those wattage and divide by 12
to figure out the amperage involved in the lighting loads.

Suppose the normal lighting load is 100 watts. 100 / 12 = 8.333.

So, if you have 100 watts of lighting load and an 8 ampere hour battery
and a voltmeter, you should be able to turn the headlights on and leave
them on for an hour
and come back and check the voltage and it should still be more than 12
volts.

If I was going to run a battery capacity test like that I would remove
the battery from the motorcycle and hook up some headlight bulbs of
known wattage that weren't installed in the motorcycle to avoid
damaging other parts of the electrical system or melting the plastic
parts of the fairing.

Like two 55/60 watt halogen bulbs from your car would be about the
right load for the battery capacity test.

Alternatively, you could take the battery down to your local Honda
$tealer$hip and have a mechanic test the battery on his motorcycle
battery charger/tester. But, keep in mind that the Honda $tealer$hip
wants to sell you a battery inthe worst way.

 

Another place to look is on ebay...you can find some good deals there as
I have, but as with a junk yard, you will also need to be careful and ask
questions....

Fwed

 

I assume you were the OP on this topic. If not, I'm
sorry. I see to recall from my initial read of the post
that the starter operation is intermittent, and other
electrical items go dark(somewhat paraphrased).

I really don't even recall the bike make, but I will
offer my own similar experience(s) with my Honda
Valkyrie.

The Valkyrie's had/have a bad starter button. It app-
arently (mis)behaves in many ways, but when mine
acts up, it will either spin the starter very slowly, which
makes you think the battery is near death, or not spin
it at all.

Second, aside from the start/nostart issue, this button
has a cutout circuitry to dark the lights for the starting
current draw.

This failure to sometimes spin the starter was particularly
prevalent when the bike might sit for a long period in the
hot sun. Usually, just playing with the start button would
cure the situation. I only noticed the dark lights during the
night time riding, and again, playing with the starter butt-
on would bring them back to life.

I know your bike is not a Valkyrie, but you might look
at this area for a possible similar cause/failure.

Thanks,

Gary

 

It's a CBR, so maybe... I'll look into it, thanks.

 

Sure.... It's probably got the same switch/assembly as
the Valk, or at least, the same manufacturer.

Let us know what you discovered.

Gary

 

Still sounds like a battery/charging problem. The buzzing sound
is likely to be the starter relay.

When the battery gets low, there's enough power to engage
the relay but as soon as it tries to activate the starter, the
starter sucks up all the power and the relay drops out again.
As soon as it drops out, there's enough power to engage
again and the cycle repeats.

Sounds like either an intermittant charging problem, a tired
battery or maybe just trying to power too many accessories
and lights in low speed traffic.

First check your battery voltage to see if the battery's
good or on it's last legs. If it's good, recheck when you
have the problem.

One nice gadget you can get is a Radio Shack "alternator/battery
tester" for $5.95 . This is a 6 LED gizmo that'll show you voltage
in 1/2 volt increments. It's easy to wire this into an electrical
system for a permanant display. All you need is a hot wire that's off
when the engine's not running. For $5.95 it'll tell you quite a bit
about your battery and charging.

 

That is useful. And cheap.