Shangai Moto GP Result... spoiler!!!!

What a race, Olivier was unbelievable on the Kwaka, I guess he had
nothing to lose so just went for it, I was cheering him on to get Rossi
but the hurdle was just too great.

Poor old Sete (er sarcasm) loses a place at the end of the race due to
the bike, if he would stop crossing himself at the start of each race
his luck might change. ( and stop putting is bloody cap on backwards!!!)

Great to see Melandri on the box again and now in 2nd place in the
championship, he seems to have developed a level head and my prediction
is he will continue to shine.

Biaggi has lost it, even as a Biaggi fan I'm finding it hard to continue
to support him, top team top bike but not getting the results. The only
thing I wonder is if the mighty HRC puts too much pressure and
expectation on the #1 rider to the point their performance suffers under
the pressure, perhaps if HRC backed off and just let the riders they
employ do their thing then they would do better.

Pity the weather was so shite, mind you if it had been fine then OJ
wouldn't have had his moment so maybe the rain wasn't so bad after all.

The 125 and 250 races were nail biters too, that last corner charge at
the end of the 125 race was incredible and Stoner was a star in the 250
race.

Paul

 

Big time, Jaque was... words fail. I always havefelt that Jaque was a huge
talent, kind of an introvert Kocinski. Huge rider. Probably one of the most
outstanding comeback performances in MotoGP ever. I think McCoy could score
similarly given the ride and special circumstances. But there are not too
many others who could. Wow.

I think he is a great rider, but I am not sure I feel he will be the one to
truly challenge Rossi one on one. I can't help but feel he is doing well
because there is no pressure on him whatsoever.

Pressure. It makes even the best cave in badly. I feel a bit sorry for
Biaggi. He is much better than his results this year show thus far. I
predict he'll come back strong once the championship can be safely written
off, and the pressure is thus off too.

Hm. Perhaps there's a Rossi challenger in the making? Indeed he is coming
along hugely.

....pablo

 

Well, well. Three 250GP champs on the podium.

 

In China Biaggi was never anywhere near the pace during any of the
practice sessions or qualifying, Hayden managed to qualify pole on the
2nd practice session.

There seems to be a lack on synergy with Biaggi and the team, things
aren't fitting together, perhaps they have different views on the way
forward and every step is a compromise, where as a winning racer finds a
synergy with the team and they are able to work together efficiently.

What ever the reasons he is off the pace on the factory bike while Gib's
is one of the fastest men out there. Maybe Max should start wearing his
cap backwards and grow a mullet to get on the pace ;-)

Paul

 

The whole HRC team seems to miss something.

Thats probably his best chance

/MBE

 

Doesn't explain it all does it? Then alle the usual backmarkers should have
been fighting their way up to the front shouldn't they?
Doesn't make make him a "huge rider" but he deserves credit for making a
good show.

/MBE

 

Called Burgess. But then wasn't Erv Kanemoto supposed to solve that and
know Biaggi well from their GP250 days?

 

I really expected the combination of Biaggi and Kanemoto to be worth
something this year, but, while we're only 3 races in, it doesn't seem
to be working.

 

I think we all have to keep in mind that a riders performance is always
a team event. Riders always thank their team when they win. I think
there is an assumption that because anyone rides for "the factory Honda
team" that is a given that they will do well and win purely because of
the technology and money the HRC factory team is reputed to have. I
think HRC also have that arrogant attitude and simply "expect" to do
well (given the history with Doohan and Rossi I guess winning became the
norm and was expected). However I think they need to sit back and
reflect, Barros didn't get the desired result last season and so far Max
is not really where they expect him to be. And I think that is the key
"expect him to be". HRC appear to think that technology and money will
overcome all obstacles, but they have appear to be ignorant in one area,
"teamwork". I think if they swap their expectations for more
appreciation thinks would move forward better.

They were spoiled with Doohan and Rossi who had the talent, ability and
team to get the results and now anything less won't do, but they haven't
learnt how to motivate.

Paul

 

He he, wish I could remember any of those But of cource you're right.
There is often somone coomming from the back in wet. And I totaly agree on
wet races. Specially those I have to do my self. Sunday is more than
probably a rain day with me on the track and I'm not looking forward to
that.

True

 

Read again. My comment was very specific. It was about "comeback
performance", and in that respect it was huge, and can't be denied. Sure he
had nothing to lose. He still had to finish ahead of many other riders after
a long inactivity. I call it huge, as far as a comeback goes. He will not be
a top finish candidate, but this was an awesome result for him. That's all.
If there are other guys that came back onto a new bike and finsihed
similarly in the course of MotoGP history after similar inactivity, I must
have missed it, and I don't think I have. It is damn impressive. Doesn't
make him a championship candidate.

....pablo

 

I beg to disagree. While I agree rain is a chancy thing, it also is a huge
equalizer when it comes to machine, and smoothness and finesse -i.e. sheer
riding skill- become critical factors. To claim it's all chance is over the
edge. To a certain degree, rain makes it 100% rider and 0% machine, a
condition you of all people should appreciate, but I see why you don't as of
late (unless Roberts wins again, of course, then you'll change your view on
the matter very quickly).

I don't enjoy rainy races because they're not even remotely as spectacular
as dry races, but I do have to admire the skill involved in finding a
compromise between riding fast and keeping it upright.

....pablo

 

They do in GP. Every year, there's at least one race in the rain. Some
times 2 or 3.

 

Like "The Young Nicky Hayden" perhaps? Guess they don't race in the rain
stateside. I'm having trouble thinking of anyone else right now.

 

Or the Japanese. Or the French. Or the Germans. Or most of the Europeans
in fact.

It does puzzle me that so few racers seem to focus on spending every
last second on the track on either improving themselves or the bike.
Even at the highest level there sometimes seems to be an awful lot of
cruising back to the pits, or cruising around waiting for the right tow,
or for the tyres to warm up, or avoiding the rain, or whatever.

 

There is no doubt whatsoever the machine advantage melts down in the rain.
To argue with that is silly. What is up for debate is the degree and type of
riding skill, and the mix of luck. But it's all rider inthe rain. Whether
it's the best overall skill or a specialized skill we can indeed talk about.

Shall I remind you Roberts actually manages to look quitew good when it
rains? Perhaps that'll change your tune some...

I don't think the edge is sharper in the dry. Rain riding magnifies the
naturally treacherous dynamics of riding a bike, in my opinion, and I notice
that quite clearly every time I ride in the rain, which I actually enjoy
doing a fair amount even though it does provide one with one or the other
ass clenching moment on a heavy bike...

I think you're overstating it for effect. Most rain races see the same guys
up front, but what happens with regularlity is that good riders on a bie
that is hopelessly inferior in the dry suddenly manage to give the other
guys a run for their money. Again, Roberts' best results in the last few
years have agruably always come in rain races. Other than Jaque, I saw no
huge suprises in the race in China. Those surprised by Van Der Goorbergh
obviously have forgotten he actually looked excellent on the hopeless MuZ a
few times a few years ago, so there's no doubting his quality as a rider. Of
course both Jaque and VDG rode without the burden of championship
considerations, but then again those going for the championship shouldn't be
quite a cramped style-wise by the pressure.

Other than those two guys, the results could have been exactly the same in a
dry race. So I don't think your "rain distorts everything" theory holds
water. The sequence of the guys -Rossi, Melandri, Gib, Biaggi, Hopkins,
Edwards, Hayden- doesn't seem a crazy result at all.

I actually have mentioned Roberts repeatedly in this thread, and yes, his
performances in the rain are the best argument that can be made against
those expressing criticism. Every time I see him ride in the rain, it makes
me raise an eyebrow and indeed go "hm, there's no doubt he can actually ride
some". So there, you're wrong. Again.

Not quite as one-sidedly as you so obstinately try to maintain, Mark. This
has nothing to do with the predictable Euro-vs-US showdown you try to bring
into every argument, and which I will steadfastily refuse to be suckered
into this season. Feel free to keep advertising your bias with every second
message you post, though.

....pablo

 

After a while, they all have. Since it's not like every race is a rain race
in Europe, and since it's not people are alowed to race in torrential rain
all the time, I think it is a skill that a good rider can acquire, and come
on, it's not like US riders who moved to GP never acuired the skill and were
always disadvantaged in the rain. They actually dominated in the rain just
like they did in the dry most of the time.

....pablo

 

They were one of the top riders - for one weekend in China. That is
impressive. Needles to say, it does raise the question how many other riders
from other series could come in and score such a result given opportunity
and equalizing circumstances. It is a bit like when the WSB came to Laguna
Seca and the AMA riders would let it all hang out. "Once in a lifetime", to
quote Eminem...

So you're saying they're all al second raters and riders undeserving of a GP
ride? Oh well. Shows your usual bias. If it'd been Shobert or some other of
the less successful riders in GP -for whatever circumstance, I am certainly
not attributing it to lack of riding talent- you'd sing a different tune,
and you know it.

4th isn't a bad result, especially considering his start to the '05 season.

But was due to finish, we've mentioned Hopkins talent and his willingness to
let it hang out to prove it repeatedly in many threads.

So basically you're saying the results weren't outrageous. Which happens to
be my point. This whoile notion about rain overthrowing the laws of the
universe is over the top. Typically the usual guys are there. It's only that
more of them fall off as a rule.

Two things here:

(1) I have never stated Roberts can't ride. That he has great riding talent
is not up for debate.

(2) Your last sentence is paranoid. I mentioned Roberts well-established
track record of looking good in the rain, and did direct it at you, but to
claim it was a mocking comment is over the top. But seriously, as Roberts
had won, as he might have, would you be truly sticking to this line?
Probably you'd be too busy rubbing it in everybody's face. Don't worry,
you'll get your chance, Roberts is bound to win again, and probably in a
rain race - just don't forget you lessened your ability to glee at that
point by steadfastily claiming now rain results are total one-off flukes.
Some people may not forget. I'll stick to my current line of throught,
though.

You don't even notice, Mark. It'd be nice if, for instance, you'd included
*one* US rider among the unworthy high-ranked finishers you mention above.
It's just a reflex you have to crap on European riders and classify them
second-rate or do stuff like that. That's the sad thing about prejudice, the
person carrying it typically doesn't even notice when they're flaunting it.

We were engaged in discussion when I mentioned Roberts, so no, that didn't
serve the prupose of dragging you into it. And note how quickly your tone
degenerates into the usual hardened and bitter line when this comes up.

....pablo

 

Excuse me, sharper when it's dry? What do you mean? The edge is definatly
sharper in rain.
As you mention later in the tread it may change but it's still very very
sharp.
On a dry track it's not at all that sharp and most riders, specially the
best, prefer to stay as far away from it as they can, and still achive their
goals.

It's true that to some extent it's a roll of the dice, but it is equaly true
that it does take away the power advantage. You will never see a regular
front runner in rain that never crash, thats the dice factor, but you will
never find those you talk about, those that gut it out, at the top in rain
but they still might crash. But you find those with a different skill. Those
that have a soft riding style, who is mentaly strong and who is very good at
finding the limit. Rain racing is different to me. Some say it's ultimate
raider skill and in many ways it's true but of course that doesn't matter
unless you are able to bring that with you into the dry. I personally know a
couple of good rain racers, they are both in the top of their class but
shine in the wet. They both often have lesser equipment and struggle with
power on the longer stretches but make up time in the corners. It's not
unususal that they are a second or two faster than their competitors in the
wet. Now, there's the equalizer. On the other hand they do also crash now
and then in the wet, thats racing or the dices if you wish.
One of those guys had one singel and enthusiastic spectator standing in the
rain outside his box cheering him at assen as he raced away from the rest of
the field in the Euro Championship for SS600: Rossi

Who says those are skills at the oposite sides? Tho slide take a high degree
of feeling, so does high speed cornering without sliding a lot. Instead of
sliding wildly with with the rear those guys regulary have two wheels
slides. Also an art of blance. Both can be an art of smothness.

/MBE

 

It was always a shame that the one WSB race in N.America was the same
weekend as a National championship race so the wild cards were always a
bit (sometimes more than a bit) distracted. And now there isn't one.