Sent to various Texan leaders:

Sent to various Texan leaders:

re: this article on CNN.com
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,136119,00.html

"Shealey told CBS' "The Early Show" his son was told "he is going to be
processed out of the Army with a general" discharge and was "very depressed
about this."

It's my strong feeling that these soldiers should NOT be discharged, but
maybe even given medals for them to put their careers (in addition to their
lives) on the line in this matter.

I think they perhaps saved lives of other soldiers. I think that used their
best judgement when their commander did not.

Please contact Maj. Richard Spiegel, spokesman for the 13th Corps Support
Command, find out who makes the decision, and let them know very many
interested citizens are going to be focusing their attention on them and
their actions. Many if not most would see no disciplining of these soldiers
is neccessary or wanted.

Thank you

Waco Glenn
Rowlett, TX

 

Orders are meant to be obeyed? Does this include Abu Gharib?

If a soldier, of any ranking, believes the orders given are either
illegal or endangering to others...he CAN and is SUPPOSED to disregard
them citing his reasons and reporting the incident to superior
commanders. Soldiers are supposed to have a head on their shoulders
and know what's right and what's wrong.

They can not be made to follow unlawful orders or that which they
believe would endanger others. This in itself is primary teachings in
basic training.

 

At this point in time, no one has any way of knowing what the circumstances
really are in this case.. The actions taken so far, have only been
preliminary.. Usenet judgement is not going to carry much weight..

Several months ago, I posted some comments that addressed another issue that
is relative.. Those comments were directed towards the makeup of our
military, at this time.. National Guard and Reserve troops are NOT
professional military personnel.. The seasoned professionals call them
"weekend warriors"..These are the men and women who are from all segments of
our society.. Although they have been trained and given the basics of
military orientation, they have not accepted military duty as their primary
credo..

That being said, their primary objectives are to complete their "tour" and
return to their civilian jobs and families as soon as possible.. Their
instincts aren't militarily developed as the professionals are.. The
civilian mentality toward their jobs cause them to react differently than
the professionals..

Although each and every one is willing, and heroically sacrifice , the fact
still remains.. they are not professional soldiers..

During my time in service, (it must be pointed out.. I enlisted when I was
seventeen years old).. there was no if, ands, or buts.. we were going to a
war zone.. Korea..1951.. If we wanted to come back home, we better learn to
obey without thought or question.. We did.. I survived that horrible
ordeal.. I came back home. I will always be grateful to that marine staff
sgt. that guided us through our basic training.. even though I hated his
damn guts..

Those were different times and different wars, although much is still the
same .. militarily... National Guard and Reserves, are just that.. They
should not be utilized as front line troops nor extended tours into combat
arenas..Each of us chose to serve in our own way.. They chose to serve in
units that were basically created to defend our nation inside our own
boundaries.. National Guard and Reserves have been exploited to serve as
"regular" troops, which is not what they were created for..

How can we expect them to react differently than they have done ?? They are
not professional military and cannot be expected to conduct themselves as
such.. Each soldier has priorities and each one wants to survive and return
to their loved ones.. The priorities of the professional soldier is to his
commanding officers' orders .. first.. The priorities of the "weekend
warrior" is to his loved ones and civilian occupations.. What the
professional considers just ordinary part of the "job".. would be considered
dangerous and unjust to the ordinary civilian.. The professional military
men and women understand this mentality and accept it as they serve with the
National Guard and Reserve troops..Some accept it with contempt and
disdain.. Many of these National Guard and Reserves are nearing sixty years
old and they have already served their country, they should not be there, at
all..

Until we know the full accounting of what has taken place with those people
who are being scrutinized, all the keyboard experts and heroes who are so
eager to blame and critique those men and women should just STFU and let the
chips fall where they may..

Especially some of the keyboard warriors on this newsgroup, who have never
served militarily and have no idea what they are talking about.. Blood and
guts comments and the eagerness to see lives ruined is soooo easy while
sitting behind a keyboard ..The best advice for these clowns is to hit the
nearest recruiting office .. Put your freakin' money where your mouth is..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

There certainly are..

They are everywhere, not just in the military, right here in

Huh ?

The armed forces makes an

Maybe you should read my previous post that is directed toward this
problem..

See above..

If the captain was in control and they refused to show

Shouldn't you just wait to see how this plays out before making the
conclusion to ruin more lives with bad discharges..

The captain was relieved of duty. He

hmmmm... sounds as though the "captain" might be looking at a court martial,
also.. However he/she is only another of the weekend warriors that I
discussed in my previous comments on this thread..

Those suppliers are not out in the

Where is that "front" that we keep hearing about.. ??Ambushes along the
roads and highways.. Homemade bombs left alongside the roads.. Car bombs in
front of buildings.. There is NO "front" in this war..

Only a step up from the gold brickers who sit in the

NOW... we are talking "courts martials"...

Sure, they could have been

Shall we all become what the "enemy" is ??

Again.. read my previous comments.. We were not prepared to fight a war like
this one.. Civilized countries are seldom prepared for barbaric resistance..
The United States should never have invaded Iraq without preparations for
just this type of warfare.. Anyone with any degree of intelligence should be
aware that no ragtag country like Iraq would be able to stand and fight the
formidable military forces of America.. Our leadership is so misguided and
foolish that they jumped us into this invasion before our military was ready
and before our country was prepared to engage in guerilla warfare..

They call it insurgent and terrorists actions.. In reality.. those people in
Iraq are reacting to occupation by the United States the same way that I'd
hope Americans would react should we be faced with invasion by an occupying
army.. I'd hope that Canadians and Mexicans would swarm to help with our
"insurgency"..

Don't blame it all on those people we've put in harm's way.. After all.. as
I've said before.. they are just "weekend warriors" who never considered, as
National Guardsmen they'd be sent in harms way in a foreign country..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Well said!

....louie

 

The comments I have made in this direction is to point out that the National
Guard, especially and to some extent the Reserves were created to ensure
that national emergencies in the United States were manned.. Much different
than the regular armed forces who were deployed throughout the world for
combat ..

The Reserves are usually made up of retired or ex-military who were to be
used to support the regulars..in emergencies..

The manner that they are being used now, has become a means of conscription
without calling it a draft.. First time I heard of "weekend warriors" was
during my second enlistment, just before the Viet Nam campaign.. For the
more than ten years that I served, we were, for the most part.. "regulars"
... Some drafted and some volunteers. Many of the officers were reserve
officers with long term obligations.. Few were career military and mostly
were not regarded highly..

At this time, I'd guess that the National Guard and Reserve troops that we
have deployed, outnumber the regulars..

Keep in mind that many changes have taken place in the military since my
last enlistment.. My comments to the priorities that many of these troops
carry into their service, are reflections of their civilian obligations ..
Those are entirely different from the priorities of the "regulars".. I've
questioned the merits of our military systems before.. Some of the questions
I raised in the past, are being borne out today..

Sad to say, that we have failed to establish the strengths and patriotic
qualities in our younger generations that would cause a seventeen year old
to survive, much less become an effective military member..

Where I came from, the military was one of the better jobs that a young man
could get.. Playing military games and being paid for it was a step up..
Besides .my country was at war and I wanted to be a part of that..

I did not want my children to ever be in that position .. Sadly.. my
generation has failed in that respect.. We didn't mean to fail .. we just
did.. What we are seeing in Iraq is the direct result of our failure..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Good to see that Bill Walker is back to his old self.......you tell em',
Bud! By George.

<>haveAgoodDay-Bjay<>

 

If anyone takes offense, they should re-examine their own priorities..

..I feel very strongly about what

Amongst those of us who served in times of war, there is no excuse.. We also
were serving with our peers who were like us.. Our leaders have sent
unprepared National Guardsmen to combat areas... These are factory workers,
office clerks, and other people coming from civilian occupations.. They've
not been oriented and trained .. Doubtful that most of them would tolerate
or could withstand the kind of training necessary, to prepare them for the
conditions they encounter in a place like Iraq..

I've criticized the wisdom of depending on our weekend warriors to withstand
the pressures and horrors of a war..

I stand behind that criticizm and believe that we are seeing, first hand..
the affects .. These people must be conditioned before any of them are sent
into harms way..

National Guardsmen and Reserve personnel are not conditioned for extended
tours of combat.. They are not supposed to be.. Many of them will not
withstand the ordeals that they will be exposed to..

Your indignation is well served and understandable.. Thanks..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

UCMJ is pretty specific about this kind of stuff. It, in on the very
smallest way, is anything close to being like civilian law.

As a group, they are probably lucky they're getting a general instead
of a dishonorable.

 

Coming in after all the hype surrounding Mi Lai, we had quite
extensive sessions on UCMJ and when it's appropriate to "question"
orders. (note: question, not disobey) We were specifically told that
we can bring concerns about the possibly illegal/inappropriate order
at the time it is given. When appropriate, it can be elevated to a
higher echelon. Most direct combat situations don't lend themselves to
that process (ie: when under fire). IOW: You keep your head down so it
doesn't get shot off, ask WTF and, if overruled, carry out that order
"under protest". You then later report the incident, but you sure as
heck don't stomp your foot like a baby, cross your arms and refuse to
carry out that order. In the situation described they weren't under
fire so only those there know if there was an attempt to "go up the
chain" and if, after that, the higher ups refused their "protest" (or
even if such a process was appropriate for the situation).

Wanna bet they either never asked to speak to the next officers in the
chain of command? Or, if they were told time didn't allow it ("Duly
noted, Captain. When you get back, you can speak to the Colonel."),
refused a direct order even after voicing their "disagreement"

 

When I enlisted in the military.. I entered "boot camp".. The first order
of business was to shave my head .. and strip me naked.. They immediately
commenced wrecking all the pride and dignity that I'd taken for granted for
my short seventeen years.. We were subjected to this treatment 24/7 for
several months.. not for two weeks.. When they had us totally destroyed,
they commenced to rebuild us in the image that would mean our survival in
combat.. This doesn't happen one weekend per month or for two weeks during
the summer..

I saw many of those recruits break completely.. They either ran away or they
were discarded.. By the time the rest of us graduated from that "boot camp"
... we were disciplined and ready to be assigned.. That training and
discipline was the only reason that I survived Korea.. Not quite.. the good
Lord had something furthur in mind for me.. A lot of good men who went there
with me did not come back home..

The go to the same schools as Regular military. The only thing

Those are qualities which are inbred into each of us, however.. I'll add...
the discipline and orientation can only be instilled over a period of time
and it is a full time project.. not one weekend a month and two weeks of the
year.. Some of the most dishonorable and evil men I knew, also made the most
fiercesome warriors.. The training and discipline made them good men to
serve with.. I wouldn't want to share my table at home with any of them, but
I was sure glad he was on my side..

They should not be in the combat arena.. They've not been prepared for what
they'll be subjected to..

thief.

Truthfully.. they had no idea when they enlisted in the National Guard, that
they'd ever be injected into a shooting war, in Iraq.. They expected to be a
home front type support and never leave home.. We are saying much the same
thing.. When I signed that dotted line.. at my age.. the recruiter tried to
convince me to enlist in a reserve unit.. He informed me, that by enlisting
"active" that I'd be shipped to Korea as soon as my basic training was
finished.. As well as any seventeen year old could, I made the decision and
stayed in service for a little more than ten years.. I'm convinced that we
are sending people into that war zone who are not conditioned .. That is the
fault of our leadership..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

quoted by iceman
Actually the use of the reserved units changed dramatically under Bush
1 and Clinton. They became better supplied and trained and the nature
of their training was modified specifically for how they are being
used now (a near-line supplement to the regular forces). No troop
could look at the changes and not know what their training was about
unless they chose not to think about it. This was how the "peace
dividend" was accomplished, folks. The purpose of those changes in
policy were clear from the outset. Anyone who even casually maintains
an eye on such things knew about it.

Conscription means that the joined the reserve unit unwillingly. To
the best of my knowledge, each member of those forces volunteered for
that job. They were able to get "light duty" for quite some time but
now they are expected to step forward and earn their keep. While some
may whine about it, none of them can claim that such whining is
justified or that the intent of their position was anything less than
what they are being asked to do.

 

The Guard and reserve attend the same basic training and tech schools as the
regulars do. Also all guard and reserve units have full time members at
almost a 1 to 1 ratio that train the regular reservist and maintains the
equipment. The Guard and reserves have served in every war since WW 2 on the
frontlines and have exemplified their selves with their service. A good
example is th 45th infantry division.

 

Who have a museum in Oklahoma City, near the zoo.

 

I live in Moore

 

With all due respect.. you are absolutely right.. Nothing in my comments
should be taken out of the context in which they were offered..There is a
purpose for which the National Guard was created..

They were not created as a mainstream armed force, to be used outside the
boundaries of the United States.. Again.. with all due respect.. the
National Guard, as the name implies.. was created to ensure that our country
was protected within.. There is nothing dishonorable connected with that
task..

The point that I make.. is that our leadership has misused the National
Guard and Reserves by deploying them as attack and invasion forces..The
present deployment of the National Guard in foreign conflict must certainly
affect the defenses of our own country..

National Guard forces were desperately needed in New York and Washington,
DC.. when we were attacked.. They have been desperately needed in Florida
and up the East Coast during the natural disasters that have occurred in
those areas, lately.. Service in the National Guard and Reserves is
commendable.. The way the leadership has misused them is in question, in my
mind..

Your friend in Irving
Bill Walker

 

Well, all these opinions from various posters are truly valid, and give some
pause for thought.
As I read it, there was a concern about tainted helicopter fuel in addition
to the shoddy maintenance and lack of whatever.

I have to say, I would have followed orders in this case. If I was on that
mission and asked to deliver tainted fuel to front line troops, I would have
tossed a grenade in the tank, walked over to the CO, salute and say "Excuse
me, sir! Where did you say you wanted me to take this flaming heap? Sir!"

 

LMAO... you are pathetic..

 

You tell them!!!

Anyone comes back from Iraq alive and with all their limbs, we should
get an extra check in our taxes next year!!! There's no sense in all
these "reservists" thinking they'll get to go to college without
shedding some blood.

Oh wait, isn't the biggest recruiting slogan about going to college on
something called a GI Bill? I think I might've read something about
that...yeah, yeah...it was at the RECRUITER'S OFFICE.

I'd like to see you when you come up on a armed robbery in progress.
If you don't rush in and "earn your check", I'd be there demanding my
money back from your pay that comes out of my taxes.

This isn't a video game and it isn't a movie. This is real life and
people are involved. Have we as a society become so callous(sp?) to
others that we demand they get killed or injured to satisfy our "tax
dollars"? I'm not justifying what those soldiers did, but I can't sit
by and see people spew forth garbarge about how those soldiers need to
obey all orders and "git kilt" because that's what "my tax dollars go
for". How about understanding that these men and women are just like
us and aren't that eager to get shot up or blown apart. I don't blame
them...that shit hurts! Do you want to get shot and killed so someone
can get their money's worth for their taxes? That's what you're saying
here. Think about it.

 

I thought they were only used for "garbage detail" in New York City?

In this case, the reservists are called up because we don't have
enough military to go around. Being in a country the size of Texas, I
find that pretty pathetic that we don't have enough "regulars" to go
around...not to mention keeping reservists and guardsmen a couple
years "called up".

That's right! You tell 'em, Nurick+Ass! If they can't lose a few limbs
and get shot up, we want our money back!!!

As you say, "**** 'em all...and give us refunds".

Well said...well said!

Yeah, and that goes for the whining little pussy's in the hospitals
who are gold bricking their way around. Imagine the idea of them
limping like they only have one leg. They need to earn their keep and
get back out there fighting!!! They still have one leg left that
wasn't shot off!!! You tell 'em!

You tell 'em! You're on a roll there! You GO! Little whining pussys!
The idea they're getting paid by our tax dollars and not giving us our
money's worth! Hell, we can't even watch while they get blown apart or
sent back in body bags!

That goes for all these police and firefighters out here too! The idea
they won't run into a burning building and save my goldfish...I want a
refund on my taxes because of that! Whining little cops! Sitting
around and complaining...they knew what they were getting into when
they got hired! What, did they think they were going to sit on their
asses in an air conditioned car and get paid for nothing? Did they
think they could get free meals at IHOP for nothing?

</sarcastic response>

Albert, you're truly an ass! You live up to the name you gave your
company...Nurick+Ass. In this case though, Nurick*is*Ass. If you want
someone to die or get injured to satisfy your little whim, get your
lazy stupid ass over to Iraq and "gitter dun"!

As for everyone else expecting to have someone die for their tax
dollars, the same goes. I'm sick of seeing people complaining that
they're not getting their taxes satisfied because someone isn't
willing to die. I just hope and wish I'm there when the shoe is on the
other foot. The whole bunch of you should be ashamed and embarassed to
project views as you have. I won't have any part of it.

I'm done with it!