Safe?

Since you seem to be down with the stats, I'm going to ask (even if I
don't actually expect you've got an answer, but I'm curious anyway) if
there's any information that indicates that high visibility vests make
you safer?

I'm required by my employer/contractor/whatever to wear a high
visibility vest while working (motorcycle courier) for insurance
reasons. Anecdotally, I think they're about as counterproductive as
stabbing yourself in the eye with a dirty fork in preference to seeing
an optometrist. I've found SMIDSYs are up since I started wearing it
(I've evaded all of them so far), except for the SM part of the
acronym. That part is way down. And the IDSY part is starting to
look kinda insincere.)

 

Or the driver at fault was nowhere to be seen when the cops arrived.

 

And to compare that to data for casualty car accidents... 31% of all
car accidents are single vehicle accidents. Considering these stats
(and those for bikes) are only for accidents in which medical attention
was provided. So take into account that motorcyclists are much more
likely to be injured in a minor accident than car occupants, and then
also take into account the motorcycle's super ability to turn what may
be a small slide in a car into a big slide on your arse. In comparison
I'd say that 31% of cars is pretty poor form, and statistically probably
worse than the bike stats.

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX

 

I don't know how effective they would be riding around the city, where
long distance visibility isn't really that much of an issue, but I do
know from experience that out on the open road, riding a very slow
moving bike, the fluoro orange vests were very distinct form the
surroundings and were visible for over a km, and people without the
vests were virtually invisible until much closer.. which made a big
difference safety wise when the other traffic is travelling 30-40kph faster.


Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX

 

In aus.motorcycles on 24 Feb 2007 03:49:54 -0800

I can't really say, no. Because the big problem is that famous cry of
"I didn't see you" which is usually "I didn't notice you because I
wasnt paying attention". Trouble is there's no way to tell if a vest
might have attracted that attention.

Some say that because it is possible it might and there's no downside
(aside from feeling like a dork) that you might as well do it, others
say that it's a false sense of security and the money is better spent
on things like training.

It does seem to boil down to psychology which is not an exact science!
Does the vest make you seem inexperienced? Or not-dangerous? Big
piles of anecdotal evidence say that the more dangerous you look
the more visible you are - people don't seem to bang into motorcycle
cops or Hells Angels.[1]

There's also a lot of work done on what I call "exception processing",
that is how people deal with something that's not what they are expecting.
THe really famous one is an experiment where people were told to watch a
film of a basketball game and count up certain moves done by the players.
In the middle of the game a guy in a gorilla suit walked onto the court.
At the end of the film a number of the participants couldn't remember it
had happened. Because they were concentrating on the game and anything
else was just discarded.

Because few riders wear them, there's no way to get stats about vests.
And because changes like wear vests aren't made in isolation it's hard
to get good info about how they have affected people like road workers
and cops. Lots of anecdotal evidence about how people have hit them
anyway but no way to to know how many times someone wasn't hit that was
due to the vest.

They might work. They might not. We just don't know.

Zebee


[1] Of all the bikes I've owned, the one that got the most respect
on the road, the most space around it, the fewest close calls, was the
'Orrible 'Onda Chop which was a radical Santee hardtail with 6" overs and
coffin tank and which I rode in shorty black openface and denim cutoff.
The next most "visible" one was the Baby Beemer, a 1952 BMW single that
measured about 9.5 out of 10 on the Cuteness Index. People had no trouble
at all seeing either. Both were black and had almost no frontal area.

 

The most visible bike I have owned was a 1991 White BMW R100RS, it looked
like a cop bike and drivers really got out of the way.

Boxer

 

In aus.motorcycles on Sat, 24 Feb 2007 22:05:28 GMT

I can believe that!

Way back when I had the Kwak GT550 I put a white Bol d'Or fairing on
it. Combine that with a plain white fullface lid and I was told by a
number of people that in the rear view mirror I looked a lot like a
cop bike. Mainly in the "dammit, I stopped speeding and all for
nothing" tone of voice

I also recall riding to Canberra with someone on an ex-cop K100.
Dammit I *knew* it was him, but every time I looked in the mirror I
reflexively thought "cop! am I in trouble?"

I made him take the lead, it was too much for my heart.

Doesn't always work, knew a bike cop in Adelaide who had someone turn
across his path on a dead clear straight road when the bike had the
lights and sirens going. (needless to say the "I didn't see him"
excuse didn't get very far.)

Zebee

 

I think you'll find the high visibility vest is OH&S related too ..
posties have to wear 'em. Given the choice I'd rather be seen than not.

 

I'm self employed. It's insurance. What I'm questioning here, is
whether in city driving, a "high visibility" vest actually improves
your chances of being "seen". My experience suggests that it serves
more as a target saying "drive over the top of me, I deserve it" than
as a means of preventing accidents.

 

In aus.motorcycles on 25 Feb 2007 01:24:13 -0800

Consider finding something that looks more like the jackets police
wear. I dunno how many people would recognise cop wet weather kit
with the flouro green and reflective, but it might work.

I suspect your best bet is do your courier work on an ex-cop BMW
although that has the drawback that everyone around you will go 10kmh
slower....

Zebee

 

As Doug says, if they can't see a 7 tonne red truck with siren and flashing
lights, a vest isn't gonna help

 

Precisely. I think fluoro vests work well at a distance, to help people
anticipate, particularly when they are approaching a slow moving bicycle
rider etc from behind... but I think a lot of the SMIDSY accidents are
not so much SMIDSY but more SMISYBIDAYAATASSQ - Sorry mate I saw you but
I didn't anticipate you arriving at the accident scene so quickly - i.e.
where the driver sees the rider, but thinks that they can complete their
manoeuvre turn, u-turn, etc before the bike gets there.

Nev..
'04 CBR1100XX

 

Well... people who are LOOKING can see you more readily, yes.
They're not really the problem though are they?

 

Yeah I think it falls into the "it can't hurt..." category.

 

You know, I was struck (no pun intended) with the same realisation just
after I got my 4x4. I simply could not believe the number of people who
were quite prepared to pull out in front of a bright red, 2 tonne
vehicle. After that, I stopped even bothering to wonder why they pull
out in front of me on the bike.

 

In aus.motorcycles on 26 Feb 2007 08:47:02 +1100

I've never worn a safety vest on a bike. BUt I don't seem to get
close calls that often.

Loud pipes? Dunno... I didn't notice any change in beahviour on the
commute to Mona Vale between the T with quiet pipes and the T with the
originals with the baffles removed!

Or between the current pipes when they first went on (they were quiet
then) and the current 95db "gotta change the packing one day" version.

Bike size? Guzzi or Gilera, not much difference.

I haven't tried a small quiet bike, neither the Gilera or the Yam fall
into that category! The Old Girl is quiet but small she ain't.

Maybe I have a much higher threshold of "close call" than other
people? So what someone else classes as a "near miss, bastard didn't
see me" I class as normal, or else "I should have seen that coming"?

Curious GB, where have you noticed the effect most? Lane changers?
People pulling out in front? People turning across? Or is it
generic?

Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Mon, 26 Feb 2007 09:28:14 +1100

I'm asking GB who said the vest worked.

Zebee

 

You have a 1000cc sporstbike whose colour scheme has the word "gunmetal"
in it and you ride it in a dayglo vest?

I got taken out ummm... three weeks ago. Partly my fault. I was
lanesplitting down the middle of the road and didn't have the spidey
sense on full approaching a minor intersection, so when a yuppie type
decided to swing out of the line of backed-up traffic and drive the last
couple of car lengths between him and the cross-street on the wrong
side, I wasn't quite ready.

Impact at jogging pace, getoff at walking pace. The bike barely slid a
few cm, I did an arse-based combat roll, then bounded back over to the
bike to cut the ignition and to make it less horizontal.

The guy was already out of the car and yelling shit by this point. I put
the bike on the stand, turned to him and just growled. He got all polite
from then on.

You haven't been taken out in traffic and you credit your magic dayglo
vest. I've now been taken out once in eight years of riding through
traffic like a complete and utter fuckstick, and even my interaction
with the driver who got me confirmed the validity of my approach... ride
like a pursued axe-murderer, and the ones you have to worry about will
keep their distance. They're oblivious to pleas of "Look out for me. I'm
volnerable." but they're very attuned to a message of "Come near me and
I'll make you wish you hadn't".

 

Probably stating what's already been thought of, but don't forget to
compare raw number as well as percentage. If the absolute value is
steady vs actually going down, is a different probable root cause.
Y'know what I mean ?

JL

 

In aus.motorcycles on 25 Feb 2007 22:06:26 -0800

Yes, that's been done

Like I say, I don't have the numbers of either kind. Hit up Guy for
them!

Zebee