Race day...

That puts an end to the discussion. Like Rossi said, this is racing.
It's not about going the fastest without anyone else on the track. It
is about finding a way around the people in front of you. And we have
all seen dirty riding when the guy in front is slower and simply wants
to block, all over the track, elbows out. Rossi wasn't doing any of
that, he was running great racing lines. This was a great battle
because it was a chess match, on one turn's aprex they were already
fighting for an advantage on the next. Repeatedly, Stoner conceded not
because he couldn't get by, but rather because he saw he'd put himself
into a bad situation by claiming a lead that would last just a few
seconds.

At no point in time did Rossi remotely pulled a move like the one he
put on Gibernau in Jerez in one of the last turns a few years back -
that was very hard and questionable. Laguna Seca wasn't. Stoner did
whine excessively. Obviously Stoner was capable of a faster pace than
Rossi - whenever he had the room and was running by himself. He could
not find the pace where it mattered - to get around (and away from)
Rossi. And got frustrated by it. And made a mistake as ge got
frustrated. Stoner should learn from this: he should have regrouped
for a while, bidding his time, and not engaging into a long drawn-out
mano a mano against Rossi. he should have known "I have the pace, and
the infighting is where Rossi's opportunity is". I didn't see him
tasking a lap or two to truly find out where he had the real speed
advantage over Rossi, and putting a passing plan together. He fell
into Rossi's trap. And made a mistake.

The whining was unbecoming for a world champion.

 

I don't agree with that at all, this isn't driving down the highway
where you're supposed to maintain one car length's distance for every
ten miles per hour. And it's not club racing or even 125 racing where
the bikes are slower, lighter and more maneuverable. This is the
pinnacle of racing, powerful and relatively heavy machines being
ridden by the very best riders in the world, running within feet or
even inches of each other and on an edge the rest of us can only
imagine. These guys have to have absolute trust in each other to race
that way. If someone chooses to break that trust, the other guy can't
be expected to have maintained a sufficient margin to deal with that.

And who are these eye witnesses, and where were they? Apparently the
only camera angle we have on it is from straight in front of them,
where you can't tell anything. The entry to 11 is an unusual point, a
key passing point on that track but not one where anyone is actually
watching, the paddock fence on one side (with the paddock lower than
the track) and a dirt embankment on the other, topped by an RV camping
area. And then throw in that almost no one is willing to actually
suggest criticism of the Great Rossi and anything he does, so where
does that come from? Ultimately this comes down to what Stoner and
Rossi did and thought, and everyone else seemingly is lining up to put
the boot to Stoner.

But the question is, did he make a mistake or not? You and all the
Rossi-ites believe it with total conviction, but I see a race that was
extremely unusual in terms of tactics - because Laguna doesn't have a
long straight or some other slam-dunk passing point Stoner could
utilize, Rossi was able to race with him by staying in front despite
an ultimate pace disadvantage of perhaps 0.3-0.5 seconds. But that
required him to get back in front very quickly every time Stoner could
get by, and Rossi had shown a willingness to do almost anything to
accomplish that by the fourth lap, he was very determined to make that
work. That's kind of an unusual situation at this level, effectively
the guy leading being the attacker and for an entire race.

When Stoner overshot into T2 on lap 14 he gave Rossi almost a second
lead, and it looks like Rossi tried to exploit that to get away. Rossi
did his fastest laps by lap 18, but Stoner was back on him anyway,
having done his as well. But then Rossi lost a couple tenths, perhaps
his tires finally going off, and he was down to pushing very hard and
running a real risk to stay ahead of Stoner at the start of lap 24,
the pass back in T3. So he may well have been at a point where he was
facing having to go even farther in his tactics to maintain that lead.
Given what we've seen him do in the past - ramming Gibernau at Jerez
in a similar situation - who is to say he wouldn't have taken that
added step over the line?

I'm not saying he did, Stoner may have misjudged on corner entry,
Rossi may have done something different in terms of corner entry but
completely legitimate, I just don't know. But given what I saw and
what Casey accused Rossi of after, I can't simply dismiss the
possibility like you do.

 

I said 'avoiding'. Sure, a guy in front can make a mistake, and you
can get caught up in his accident. Or he can suffer a machine failure,
or even miss a gear. But if you're taking avoiding action, that's
down to you.

No one? Crikey, I don't think there's one inch of Donington that
hasn't got 1000s of spectators looking at it. Also, how many
overtaking moves did we see at turn 11 on Sunday? I don't recall any.

Stoner says he did - "`A bit more than half way through the race when
I made the mistake Valentino seemed to brake a little bit earlier so I
had to go around him and I ran off the track, which was my fault".
So, there's a veiled criticism in there, but he's not accusing Rossi
of anything.

Note the phrases "I made the mistake" and "which was my fault".

Anyway, Mark, you're so keen to put words in the mouths of the
'Rossi-ites' - what do you *actually* think happened?

 

No change there then.

 

And yet here you are going to lengths to denounce everyone else's
opinion of what they think they saw. You're not sure what happened,
but everyone else is definitely wrong.

 

Tullyhubbert points to:

Fookin hell


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

Mark N disagrees:

You should stick to sector times and spectator
counts as you haven't a clue about racecraft.


Go fast. Take chances.
Mike S.

 

I think this applies to the Rossi-Stoner duel 100% - the crash was
100% Stoner mistake, no doubt about it, and no one that has a clue
seems to have claimed otherwise. Not even Stoner, who said that some
of the moves were over the top, but took full ownership for the crash
itself and never mentioned Rossi did anything to make him crash.

In general, there are some codes the guy in front ought to abide by,
because unpredictable lines designed to run into the guy with the
faster pace are a no-no, and if a much faster rider crashes because a
bakmarker make a blatant mistake, the guy up front needs to take a lot
of the ownership. But that clearly did not apply in Laguna Seca.

 

There aren't that many things the person at the front "has" to do in
terms of rules or even common sense or sportsmanship for that matter.
The issue of unpredictable lines more or less falls under the "no
weaving" rule, which states that you are only allowed to move across
the track and back once in a straightaway. I always thought that was
a rather elegant way of addressing a somewhat subjective thing. And
other questionable riding is usually handled by protests after the
fact. Has anyone ever been black-flagged in GP's for being too
aggressive?

 

That is only an accurate statement if you define "the crash itself" as
being the events starting after he'd taken evasive action in order not
to rear-end Rossi and ending with the bike on the ground. To my
knowledge Stoner has never claimed responsibility for having to take
that evasive action, in fact quite the opposite. The most definitive
thing I've seen on this is that BBC clip, and in that the interviewer
asks him if there was a brake check involved, and his response was
"who knows". One can assume the interviewer asked that question
because he thought there might have been one, or because of something
Casey was saying before the clip started that he overheard.

Here's what the FIM rules say on this general matter: "Riders must
ride in a responsible manner which does not cause danger to other
competitors or participants, either on the track or in the pit-lane".
Beyond that, it seems a judgment call. I think your weaving scenario
is interesting, and I'd thought about posing that question here. There
are people here who think that the line is crossed only when a rider
knocks another rider down or runs him off the circuit, and that only
if it's done intentionally. Earlier you said, "To me, dirty racing is
when you're being intentionally run off the track or the passer
cannonballs themselves into a corner with complete disregard for what
will happen at the apex -- no plan, extremely high chances of the
passer him/herself not making it, yet going on the inside of others.
The most questionable move by Rossi I saw in this race was going off
in corkscrew and then having to get back on the pavement. But there's
no way I would call that intentional disregard for anyone's safety and
indeed Rossi gathered it up and got out of the way leaving Stoner
enough room to stay on the pavement as soon as he was able."

You used "intentional" there, and I don't see that in the rules, nor
do I think it has any place there. Rossi very intentionally tried to
get back pst Stoner there, and was at best on the edge of control
doing so, his rear off the ground and waiving under braking going in,
his pass causing Casey to stand it up and drift off his line, Rossi's
entry too low and too fast not to go off the track at the second apex
of that chicane, and his reentry onto the racing surface off line and
creating a danger to Stoner following behind, who had to veer
significantly to his left in order to not hit Rossi. Essentially Rossi
straight-lined the chicane, and did so intentionally in order to get
back in front to Stoner as quickly as possible. And his action at the
end certainly wasn't to avoid impacting Stoner (which was in fact his
entire intention in this race, start to crash), it was to get back on
line and to speed.

Now I don't think that should have resulted in a penalty, certainly
not on its own, but what about Rossi's actions throughout this race? I
think to a large extent it comes down to the definition of racing
itself. If racing is about trying to get from start to finish as fast
as possible, that a rider's actions need to be defined as pursuing
that goal, then Rossi's entire strategy in this race has to be
questioned. But if the definition is to get to the finish line ahead
of other riders, no matter how quickly or slowly, no matter the
tactics, then Rossi's approach was fine. What that comes down to is
the reason for Rossi's various passes, was Stoner in his way and
slowing him down, or was Rossi trying to get in Stoner's way in order
to slow him down, even if it cost Rossi speed?

The Ali rope-a-dope analogy is appropriate here. If someone does that
to an extreme he might well be disqualified, because he simply isn't
fighting. Just as someone pursuing Rossi's tactics to an extreme
should be disqualified, because he isn't racing.

The weaving thing is an example of this - if someone weaves violently
and unpredictably across the track, in order to keep another rider
behind, what is the issue? I think someone here excused Rossi because
he was in front of Stoner and Casey had the ability to avoid him, but
isn't that the case with this weaving? The other rider can stay behind
and he's perfectly safe. Obviously this is an extreme example, but it
points out the fallacy in that rationale.

But what about a brake check, which is what is at issue here? Someone
said if a rider hits another rider from behind it's entirely his
fault, which at least suggests a brake check should be kosher. But my
impression is that brake checks are universally considered to be
despicable behavior, and blatant use of them would bring down the
wrath of the officials everywhere. So what's your call on a brake
check?

Anyway, I really think the reaction to this race is so positive as
respects Rossi is exactly because it was Rossi, and to a much lesser
extent because it was Stoner as well. Rossi is the most popular racer
ever, and his win makes the season more exciting and interesting
generally - people have had enough of Stoner/Ducati total dominance.
But had the roles been reversed, Stoner hounding Rossi in this manner
and Rossi ultimately crashing and pointing the finger, the reaction
would be quite different, I'm sure. The "racing is blood" crowd
wouldn't likely change their opinion much, but there are a lot of
others who would be much more willing to criticize Stoner as not
operating in "the true spirit of racing" than they would to criticize
Rossi for that. Especially given the championship circumstances.

 

After a lengthy post, you finish up with a parapgraph that is
substantiated by nothing you have written previously.

Whether it was Rossi or not does not infuelnce my view on this one
iota. Quite the contrary: because it was the duel up front we got a
lot of in-depth coverage, and all I saw was guys racing hard. Not
remotely as hard as Rainey and Schwantz would go for back in the day.
Part of being involved in e legendary race is to be able to safely
race at a pace and with moves that many other extremely competent
racers would not be able to master. Rossi and Stoner raced each other
so hard that they *both* made mistakes, which has been the case is
great races forever and ever. Both made hard moves on each other.
Stoner didn't stay glued to Rossi's rear because he wanted to make it
through every time, he was crowding him because he thought he'd make a
mistake - Rossi has fallen off a few times in the last years. Stoner
would in turn stick his tire where there wasn't really room for it. It
went *both* ways. Like I said, Rossi did not pull the Jerez-Gibernau-
special on Stoner... and if I was just saying what I am saying because
I am a Rossi worshipper, what I wrote about that move is in the Google
Groups chronicles. *That* crossed the line big time - and let's recap
the big difference: Rossi was behind, moved into the inside out of
control (like Pedrosa did to Hayden in the latter's title winning
year), and knocked Gibernau off circuit. Things were not even remotely
at that level in Laguna Seca. If your only evidence is Rossi's off-
road trip, that was clearly not intentional, and I still find it
strange Stoner turned on the curb knowing would have to come in, which
may or may not indicate he was closing the door to keep Rossi off
track intentionally, if we are going to throw unsupported consipracy
theories around.

And Stoner's crash did not come from a brake check. It is very clear
on the MotoGP site. It looked like a case of late braking gone wrong
for Stoner, not like a case of having to avoid the rider ahead at all.
A brake check would lead to a different scenario. The images leave 2
possibilities: Stoner tried to brake with Rossi to stay close, and it
was too late for him. Or Stoner was trying to outbreak Rossi, and it
was too late for him. A brake check would have lead to (a) Rossi
having less speed in the turn (b) Stoner losing it earlier. Anyhow,
Stoner clearly stated it was his mistake, so only someone with the
usual chip on their shoulder when it come to Rossi would continue to
propagate such a non-issue.

It was great racing: very hard, and fair. *Both* fought hard. *both*
made mistakes. Stoner's was costlier. End of story.

 

In all those laps we never saw Stoner go for the inside block pass at
that turn. What we seemed to see was Stoner on the exact same line as
Rossi in line astern taking the same braking, corner speed, acceleration
line. Stoner would then try and get the power on fractionally earlier in
the corner but every time Rossi got the initial jump on him. Now whether
its intentional or not, if Rossi's braking changes on a particular lap
in any way, that leaves Stoner directly behind Rossi right on the limit
of braking with nowhere to go. If Rossi changes his tactic for the
corner, by say braking fractionally earlier and trying to carry a
fraction more corner speed, Stoner gets sucked into being too close to
him.

If we can just get past this red herring that Rossi brake checked him,
what might Rossi's strategy for that corner have been? The next straight
and speed onto the next straight was critical. Rossi had to keep Stoner
behind him into the corner and then get a better jump out of the corner
so that Stoner wouldn't be able to get past on sheer power too early on
the drag up the hill.

This is exactly the problem. You look at Stoner's past whining and then
his whining on the day and it doesn't seem unlikely to me at all. Stoner
may well think Rossi braked early, and he may well think that Rossi was
doing it to screw him up. And he's probably right. But even though he
blames himself for falling off when he got to the gravel, he blames
Rossi for making him fall off so its not really his fault he came
second.

Quite. So what's that? Selective blindness?

 

And you can assert this how?

There is nothing inherently wrong with slowing both yourself and your
opponent down in the course of a fight for position. Maybe our views
of what racing should be are divergent.

I'm not familiar with what you're referring to here.

I don't understand how making an aggressive pass, while still on the
pavement, that then doesn't come out quite as you'd expected,
gathering it back up and avoiding contact is like weaving down a
straightaway.

My call on a brake check is that I've never seen or even heard of one
attempted in a racing situation. It makes no sense, because it's so
dangerous. As a rider in front, you don't know for sure where the
person behind you is: how close to you they are, or if they are in
line with your bike. The chances of both of you going down, you
completely missing them and them simply going by you, or bikes
contacting each other and you coming away with damage are simply too
high. If the tactic is to break another person's drive out of a tight
corner, I can think of 2 much better ways of doing it:
1. fake early braking by sitting up a little bit earlier before
getting on the brakes, possibly psyching the following rider into
grabbing their brakes earlier than necessary
2. ride an inside defensive line and allow them to get on your outside
or follow you; if they get on your outside hoping to criss cross
lines, you can keep going straight a bit longer, as you're now in
control and dive in, when you've likely screwed up their entry
It didn't look like either one was being attempted. Conversely, that
corner makes it very easy to make a braking mistake. Firstly, there's
a bump in the middle of the braking zone. Secondly, the entry speed
is crucial to get a good drive, while it's very tempting to keep
carrying lots of speed off the preceding section -- a split second
miss of your braking marker can really mess you up. Stoner was
looking for different passing opportunities all around the track. Why
is it so unbelievable that he'd make a mistake?

 

I think this is the nub of it - the Stoner/Ducati advantage was in
accleration off the corners. Of course, you can only use that if the
track ahead of you is clear - what adds up to 1/2 a second a lap is
only a few yards off each corner. Maybe Burgess & Rossi figured that
out, and thus came up with a 'control it from in front strategy'.

I was still surprised by Stoner's inability to ride away - generally
if a rider is 1/2 a second a lap faster, he's gone. It seems that, in
this race Rossi/Yamaha really was better on the brakes than
Stoner/Ducati. But as you say, this is a fairly unusual track, so
this was all quite specific to Laguna.

 

Well, I see three possibilities there:

1) "We should race like gentlemen" - Rossi knows he's headed out into
Stoner's propable line, so looks for Casey and/or veers sharply to his
right in order to avoid impacting Casey, even if it negatively impacts
his run through the rest of that corner and toward T9.

2) "This is racing and I have to get to it" - Rossi tried to recover
from his off-track excursion in the way that loses him the least time,
what he would do had he not been with Casey, not racing anyone at that
point.

3) "Feels like Andalucia all over again" - Rossi realizes he's out of
shape and losing time, so fixates on the battle with Stoner and does a
Sete move again, swinging way wide and collecting Stoner on the way,
driving him off the track into the gravel, and then heads on his merry
way.

Now, I take that middle choice, as I don't recall seeing him looking
for Casey or taking what I would call evasive action of any kind, nor
do I see him intentionally getting in Casey's way. But he does go out
in Casey's path and drives him toward the outside edge of the track
there in any case.

That's part of what I was getting at, the fundamental notion fof what
racing is, or should be. Understand I'm not saying making a move to
slow another rider or that has that consequence is an issue - you
raised block-passing earlier and I don't claim that's any issue. If
someone is running at the same pace as someone in front of them, or
slightly faster, then they may have to do what they have to do to get
by, and either they will then ride away or they will stay right in
front of them (or get passed back in turn). Then there are more
questionable situations. The most extreme might be a backmarker who
decides to ignore a blue flag and race a faster rider trying to lap
him, and that's generally considered out of bounds; of course, they're
not fighting for position. Then there might be a slower rider who gets
a very fast start and then holds up faster guys trying to get by,
we've all seen that, especially when the slower guy is also a late
braker, and thiose guys often are subject to a certain amount of
verbal abuse, even thouigh they are racing for position. Then there
are race situations like a guy whose tires have gone off and he's
trying to preserve a placement in the last laps against a closing guy
who has suddenly gotten relatively faster, he's going to ride
defensively, close passing doors, etc.

What is different is a guy who has a race-long tactic to beat a guy
who is fundamentally faster by getting in front however he can and to
slow the following rider, frustrate him, try to force him into a
mistake, retain that lead by making queestionable overtakking
maneuvers, etc. At some point is that racing, is he pursuing the goal
of getting from point A to point B in the shortest possible time?
Think about Nascar - what if three teammates manage to get in front of
one of those races and then line up side by side, leaving no passing
lane at all, and rather slowly circulate until the race is over - is
that racing? I'm not saying Rossi necessarily crossed this line at
Laguna, but to me he certainly highlighted the notion of such a
line.

If you mean the rope-a-dope, Ali beat Foreman, who was a big puncher
but not a skilled boxer, by covering up and letting Foremen beat on
him until Foremen was punched out, exhausted, and Ali then quickly
took him out. I believe at least in amateur boxing one is required to
show aggression, to take the fight to his opponent and not just assume
a purely defensive posture.

It isn't, but I wasn't claiming that, I was talking about a leading
tactic that is purely defensive, and that tactic not necessarily
triggering some people's notions of where the line of unacceptability
is. And again you claim that Rossi tried to avoid contact at the end
of that incident, and I see no evidence of that.

I agree with you on this, but in the possible light of this situation
I can't dismiss that Rossi might have done so anyway. If his position
going into that race was that he just wasn't going to willingly let
Stoner win, that has was going to go into the summer break with at
least his existing points lead, and that he was going to do whatever
he had to in order to get into Casey's head, then it seems like less
of a risk. Pedrosa's already out, so you don't lose points to him, and
Vale has four weeks to heal up from a minor injury if it goes bad. And
all of his behavior in this race was consistent with that tactic, that
championship strategy. If the bikes made contact, Stoner would be the
more likely to go down (beacause he'd likely hit with his front tire),
and Rossi probably knew by that point that Stoner was unlikely to try
to outbrake him into that corner so wasn't on an inside line, and
early braking would set him up to move underneath anyway.

If the tactic is to break another person's drive out of a tight

Did someone say that was unbelievable? I think you should reread my
prior posts. The only reason I think he may have done something there
is that Stoner apparently claimed he did, and it also seems consistent
with his general approach to that race. And a brake check wouldn't
have to be all that extreme; he might have sat up early and also taken
a quick stab at the brakes to sell it a bit better. Once Stoner had
bitten on it, the bumps in the corner may have made it all worse for
him. Doesn't seem that far out of the realm of possibilities.

As for never seeing it before, take a look at that '88 Laguna GP tape
again, and keep your eyes on #1...

 

Rossi's riding, body position, and outcome were completely consistent
with him trying to avoid contact after getting back on the pavement.
I don't know how else to explain this to you, but perhaps if you
actually do some track riding, you'd understand the dynamics of the
situation.

Motorcycles are not cars, and certainly motorcycle racing is quite
different from car oval racing, so I'm not even gonna go there. For
the last time though: racing is not about posting the best lap times,
it's about beating your competitors. Perhaps you've heard the
expression, "To win, you should go as slow as possible while staying
ahead of other racers." If your lap times are slower and you beat a
"faster" rider, kudos to you for having superior race craft. If you
feel motorcycle road racing should be something else, perhaps drag
racing or time trials would be more to your liking.

Do you think it's unsportsmanlike to ride defensively?

Yes, it's all possible. It's also possible that Rossi ate rice and
beans to get better drives using farts. I don't think what you're
suggesting is likely. But you're certainly free to believe anything
you wish.

Aside from the fact that it would be rather obvious on TV if Rossi got
on and off and back on the brakes, see above about picking your
favorite theory.

Okay, thanks for the tip. Now I gotta go work on my race bike. Talk
soon, I'm sure.

 

What's the point of looking back? There is no time and Stoner can see
where Rossi is at all times. Why would slowing down be better? And
how would you accomplish this? Rossi got the bike to turn and got on
the gas as soon as it settled down. Seems like the logical and safe
thing to do to me.

Given that you want the guy to look back while being forced to get
back on the pavement tells me you're not getting it.

I'd tell Champ, and I doubt he'd disagree with me, that racing at the
Isle is a different thing from short circuit racing. I'm not saying
it's not racing. I'm saying it's a different discipline.

Thank you for the explanation. I'll refrain from explaining the term
"sarcasm" in response

Yes, what points are awarded for can have an impact on the strategy in
a road race. What's your point?

Yes, penalties can be doled out inconsistently. You said you didn't
feel like Rossi deserved to be penalized at this race. What's your
point?

I thought the yellow flag situation was unfair and that Rossi deserved
a penalty, even if it was an honest mistake like he claims, but at the
same time, as I recall, the rule book did not allow Dorna to penalize
Rossi after the fact. I don't know if they intentionally held out on
penalizing him until it was too late. What does this have to do with
the Laguna race?

It's rather straightforward, I think. A defensive line is one that
prevents or makes very difficult for a following rider to go on an
attack in the given section or series of corners. If you're talking
about a single corner, it typically means you, as the rider in front,
are riding away from the outside edge of the track, perhaps close to
the middle of the track. Defensive riding is almost always
detrimental to the lap time, but can be effective in preventing an
equal or faster rider from taking your position.

Mark, I'm not trying to prove anything or show off. But another thing
that gets tedious is constant passing of judgment on how other people
should feel, unsubstantiated inference into the minds of people you've
never met engaged in things you're not privy to, and plain old
negative vibes. Cheer up, it's just a sport, and a fun one at that.
Nobody got hurt (excepting Jorge of course), the show was good, you
had yourself a nice California vacation. I'd much rather see some
pictures you took or read about people you met or the bike you rode or
where you stayed than another table of numbers and how we shouldn't
"suck Rossi's dick". Know what I'm saying?

PS: Good on you for getting out on the track. I take it it was
Laguna. What org did you ride with? How did you like it?

 

Somebody could learn a lesson from this; particularly which object should
hit the pole and which object should not.

 

Ok already - I'll try and aim better next time.