Question on chain & sprocket

Hi All,

About 3 weeks ago I bought a nice used 1980 CB750 (DOHC) bike with about
22K miles on it for $700 and have been really enjoying the bike. There were
a few minor things wrong with it that I've fixed (turn signals backwards and
missing a ground wire, petcock main/reserve tank tube missing, sticky front
caliper, etc.)

Anyway, the big problem with the bike so far is the drive chain is
stretched and needs replacement, and both rear wheel and transmission
sprocket are worn and need replacing.

What is on there right now are the Honda stock parts, they are a 18 tooth
front sprocket, a 46 tooth rear sprocket, and a 630 o ring chain.

I used to own a Kawasaki KZ650 and when the chain stretched on that I
bought the cheapest non-o-ring chain I could find and the cheapest sprockets
I could find, and put them on, and the setup lasted about a year and a half
before it too was stretched (and yes I lubed the chain regularly, but I also
rode it in the rain) I think I peened over the master link on that one with
a hammer and chisel and a big rock.

This time I would really like to do it different and get a bit better
parts that might last longer - if such a thing is possible - and the right
chain tools to do the job. I'm mainly going to be using the bike for
freeway commuting and in the good weather (not the rain)

In talking to the local Honda dealer parts desk (who are idiots, they
claimed the factory chain was a 520 among other things, until I showed them
my factory service manual that states the chain is a 630) I got a price on
sprockets of about $170 just for the sprockets, and about $150 for the
chain. (plus $50 labor for installing it which I won't rant against right
now)

My question for the rest of you, is $320 for a garden variety, grocery
getter, NON race, sprocket and chain set realistic? Is that what the rest
of you are paying? This is a $700 bike after all, not to mention the DOHC's
didn't have a lot of reliability over the long haul anyway.

It also does not seem that there's a lot of aftermarket bike parts places
that sell a set like this - I see lots and lots and lots of gold-plated
racing sets for other bikes out there, which from appearances seem to have
little to do with real racing, and a lot to do with "ricing up the bike" but
those are all wimpy small chains (lighter weight supposedly is better) and
the sprockets are the wrong tooth combo, but they sell for a lot cheaper
than what the dealer is quoting. It seems as though if a wearable item like
this is that expensive that lots of aftermarket people would be out there
making them. Or maybe the bike is too old?

The other question I have concerns the tool to rivet the master link - I
can't seem to find anyone locally here that sells them (including the
dealer) and so looking on ebay I see that there seems to be 2 common Chinese
chain tools out there, they are:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4638086607

(cheap little tool)

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=4636601477

(more expensive tool)

One last question I have concerns lubing the chain - with an o-ring chain
does it really make any difference in longevity? The bike manual says not
to lube it except with gear oil, but I've seen some websites people have put
up where they say the o ring chains are a big rip off and don't last any
longer than a regular chain, and that both types of chains really only last
if your lubing them practically daily.

Anyway, any advice on the above would be appreciated!

Ted

 

The only one bitching here is you bitch!
Go play on the subway tracks..

J.

 

I have - unfortunately all the aftermarket places I've seen only
sell 630-530 conversion sprockets. Sunstar, RK, etc. All of
them seem to think the 530 chain is perfectly fine. The only 630
sprockets I've been able to find are the OEM ones from Honda,
and I cannot imagine that the aftermarket couldn't have improved
on these with better steel, etc.

Yes, but all of them sell the same ones. Some of the brands, like
vortex, don't carry sprockets for this bike at all, or if they do they
don't cross what they have to it.

My take on it is that just like the auto parts market, there are only
a handful of manufacturers that actually MAKE the parts, and
everyone else selling them is just selling the same stuff, for pretty
much the same price. And what is worse is that for the more oddball
(ie: older) bikes that there are fewer of them out there, the smaller
parts manufacturers don't make parts for them at all.

For example in the auto parts biz, a big conglomerate like Federal
Mogul will still make parts for something like a 1975 Datsun 510,
because they make so many parts that adding a few ones that are
really slow movers doesen't cost them anything, and it adds to their
full service parts line. They know a lot of retailers carry them because
it's easier for the retailer to deal with just a single company. But a
smaller manufacturer like Borg Warner won't make those parts they
just focus on the cherry parts like a part for a 1998 Chevy.

It kind of seems like Sunstar is the big sprocket maker for bikes
out there, but I don't know enough about the business to know.
And Sunstar is one of the ones that cross only to a 530 conversion
sprocket, probably because they don't want to make a lower-volume
part like a 630 sprocket for a 1980 Honda.

Been there, done that. It just makes the final result look like it was
done by an amateur, and unless you hit the rivet exactly correctly,
it doesen't pooch out evenly. Why do it when you can get the correct
tool pretty cheaply?

Ted

 

Less weight also means either better (expensive) materials,
or if your using the same crummy material, the part is weaker.

I could get more accelleration if I went on a diet and lost a few
pounds than by making the chain weaker.

The realities of mass production manufacturing means that when
people are making parts to compete soley on price, they cut corners
and the biggest cut corner is to use less expensive steel, that is lower
grade. The customer cannot tell just by looking at the part if the steel
in it is good or not.

That is why automobile axles are massive, massive things. If you
have ever replaced a half-shaft, haven't you wondered why the
shaft itself is 2 inches in diameter going into a gearset inside the
transmission that has teeth that are about 5 mm in size? The
reason is the steel in the gearset is far higher quality and can
take the same power that the garbage-grade steel used in the
half-shaft can manage.

If a manufacturer uses the same high quality steel in a 530
chain vs a 630 chain, the 630 chain is going to be stronger.
That's pretty simple and obvious I think. And if both
chains are maintained equally and the same amount of power
is put through them, the 630 is going to last longer.

Unfortunatelty, what I've found so far with bikes is that people
seem to check their brains in at the door when buying parts -
they will spend the $400 for a race chain set for their mid-90s
450cc motorcycle then go eat 4 McDonalds cheeseburgers
on top of that. But, hey they get "more power" to shuttle around their
lard-asses I guess.

I already said I want to use the bike primariarly for freeway commuting.
That means a lot of 60-70Mph riding on a freeway which is crawling
with cops, so opportunities to do idiotic things like burnies on the
pavement are pretty severly limited.

And I already said I want longevity and reliability. That means for
starts the largest front sprocket that will work, simply because with
a bigger sprocket you get less pressure on each tooth, thus less
energy is available to deform the sprocket and quickly wear it out (this
is why people get away with using aluminum on rear sprockets
but not on front sprockets, aluminum is a lot softer than steel) and
that also means the strongest and most wear resistant chain I can
get.

It also means gearing that makes the engine turn slower (without
lugging) since the faster the engine turns the faster it wears out
and the more heat generated.

Right now my gearing spins the engine at roughtly 5K at around
60Mph, that's a pretty good compromise for freeway riding -
it gives you a bit of pickup, but it's not geared up so much that
the engine is going to redline at 80Mph.

Because money that is spent to make the part look pretty is either
extra money that I don't want to pay, or more commonly it is
money that could go into better more expensive materials that
would last longer.

This is why real racers don't chrome everything. Chroming steel
weakens it.

And my experience is that an opinion from someone like you,
who is not a manufacturer who has a vested interest in pushing
their own products, is worth a lot more.

It could rip apart if it's not made with good materials. Sure, a
stretched chain is an invitation to breakage, but a thin chain made
with cheap materials is also an invitation for breakage.

I think it's a given that you need to lube them regularly, but the
question is this - chains wear because the holes the pins are in
elongate - this happens a lot faster with lack of lube, hence the
idea of o-ring chains (to hold the lube in so it's available for the
pins) The question is, does it work? if you have a standard chain
you keep well lubed, the theory is lube is available to the pins from the
lube
your spraying on the chain. If you have an o ring chain the theory
is that the lube is available from what's stored inside the chain,
that is kept in by the o rings, that's why the manufacturers say
not to grease the chain, but just to put gear oil on it (which does
little to lube the pins, it just keeps it from rusting). My question is, in
your experience, does the o ring theory actually work?

Preference formed based on experience, and yours is....?
(like, what brand of chain and sprocket do you like?!?)

Ted

 

When I wear out the current chain on my 750F, I'll probably be replacing
it with the 530 conversion. But I'll pick my own sprocket combination
since I like to keep the revs down a bit. (These bikes like to move in
the high rev area anyway, it's just a personal preference)

Dennis Kirk - denniskirk.com - has a variety of sprockets that will fit
this bike, and a good selection of chains as well. Also, if you haven't
already, check out www.cb1100f.net , a great resource for all questions
regarding the DOHC/F bikes. (You didn't state if it is an F, C, or K
model, but there are sites dedicated to the C and K models as well.)

And, yes, those prices - from a dealer - are realistic. Which is why I
do most of my own wrenching.

---
"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE

AMD XP 2400+ @ 2.18 GHz and 3.5GHz of other AMD power...
http://folding.stanford.edu - got folding? Team 48435

2006 ZG1000A Concours COG# 7385
1980 CB750F SuperSport "CoolerKing"

 

Yes - when they mark up the parts tremendously, then correct,
they should include free installation. Because the excessive markup
pays for the installation.

Check the MSRP online for the Honda sprockets for this bike (not
too difficult) and you will find they are more like $130 total.

The Honda dealer, unlike the online resellers on the Internet that
sell OEM Honda parts, buys in volume so their cost is even cheaper
than the online places that resell Honda parts. And since they are
a brick and mortar, when I walk in to buy the sprockets they have
an opportunity to sell me even more stuff, unlike the online retailers.
That has already happened as a matter of fact - would you like me
to post scans of the receipts for all the $500 or so worth of stuff
I've bought from them the last couple weeks?

Nothing. However it has a lot to do with what I would SPEND on
the bike. There is a point at which replacement parts costs can get
so high that it's not cost effective for even a DIYer to repair the
bike.

You said it yourself, this is a POS bike. Well that's not strictly
true because no bike is a true POS (well, maybe Harleys excepted,
just kidding) but it is true that it's not a "classic" like a early 70's
CB750 is. As a result, there's a limit that would be considered
reasonable to spend on it.

It might be reasonable to dump $2K into a restoration job on
a 1973 CB750, but not on a 1979-83 DOHC restoration job.
Do you get it?

Actually, in a way, yes. If the bike is so worthless that it's only worth
$250, then if the manufacturers like Honda want to CONTINUE to
make money selling parts, then they better figure out a way to
drop those parts costs quite a bit or pretty quick that make and
model of bike will go straight to Motorcycle Heaven when it
breaks down.

Thus, taking one more bike out of the used market, and thus
reducing the potential rider pool to sell parts to.

If the pricing on brand new bikes climbs to the same level as
a typical car, and the price on parts for older model bikes follows
suit, then after a few years just how many riders do you think are
still going to be left?

And once you slim down the pool of riders to only those people
who have a spare $20K left around to spend on a bike, well
then for a while you might make a lot of money off the
40 year olds who have some money saved up - but you won't
be selling to any young ones. And 20 years from now when the
40 year olds are all too old to ride, the young ones won't have
that history of riding street bikes and they won't be buying your
products anymore.

Walk into a bike store sometime why don't you. Around here
over the last 20 years there's been a progression away from
street bikes to offroad bikes. Why? Because the street bikes
are so friggin expensive the young pups can't afford them. But
they can afford some 70 cc bike with knobby tires to go riding
around in the mud with.

20 years ago I used to see a lot more younger 20 somethings
on street bikes. But these days whenever I pass anyone on
the freeway, they are at least 30 years old, most of the time
usually older. Kind of really makes me wonder what the
motorcycle world is going to end up looking like in the future.

I wasn't bitching about it, I was asking if the parts cost was
realistic in view of what it was and what it's problems are.

Sounds to me you really aren't expressing an opinion of this
bike or it's chain replacement, which is what I asked for.

Ted

 

The 530 chain is not only fine, it is far superior to the 630
abhorration. The 5/8" pitch makes a smoother ride over the
sprockets and is lighter. A lighter chain means less forces
when the chain "whips".
630 was introduced, found lacking, and sent to the scrap heap
of motorcycle history.

I've never seen sprockets that were better than OEM. That is
probably because I was never interested in "high performance"
bits that cost more than OEM. The general aftermarket
sprockets are rather crude (to put it mildly).

As for your question about longevity of O-ring chains compared
to regular. The difference is dramatic. If you put a 1/10 of the
work you would do on a regular chain into a O-ring chain, you
will get anything from twice to 5 times the life.

Care and feeding of O-ring chains depends entirely on your
local climate and riding habits. Easiest solution is to buy a
can of spray on chain lube at your dealer. My personal
recommendation would be to stay away from what is known
as chain wax. You need a bit of lubrication to keep the
O-rings happy (too much friction and rust will shred them)
and to prevent surface rust on the chain.

 

Mark, not very typical of you.

6xx is 6/8" (3/4") pitch while 5xx is 5/8" pitch.

XX is 10 times the width in decimal 1/8ths of inches, 20 is
20/10*1/8" = 1/4" for example, 25 is 5/16", 30 is 3/8".

How I love metric systems!

 

And there I go, posting before thinking.

So, thinking a bit, I come to the conclusion that 530 chain
might well be heavier than 630 chain.
If one can assume that the two types are made of equal
materials, you need the same sideplate thickness to get
enough tensile strength. Now the only difference is that
the 530 will come with a lot more pins, bushings and
rollers for the same length. Heavier.
OTOH, all the bushings and rollers are larger on the
630. So does anybody have some catalogue or other
reference to settle this. Or am I only being dense?

But, looking at bikes with a lot more power than an old
CB750 it seems that 530 or 525 is the way to go.
One good reason being that you can have smaller
sprockets but still not get so few teeth that the
velocity differences wear the chain out prematurely.

 

It can mean smarter design

Maybe. But why would you want a stronger chain? Strong
enough is good enough.

Not at all. Weight (but see my other post) and number of
teeth on front sprocket may eat up all the edge the 630
chain has.

Welcome to the wonderful world of market economy and meeting
customer demand. Many people who buy expensive, superior
products want that to be visible. Luxury cars with industrial
corrosion protection might make sense but they will never sell.

That is why the less adventurous among us stay with DID, RK or
some other well known brand. We pay a premium but we sleep well
because we know the value of the brand is worth more than cutting
corners can save to the company making the chain.

Theory? What theory? This has been mainstream technology on
non competition bikes the last 30 years or so. You really came
out of hibernation recently, did you?

 

My '05 has a 530, but I've noticed that the '06's now come with a 525 V8
chain. Anybody have any idea what the V8 means in this case?

(And R1's use a 530 chain as well, so it's apparently able to handle lots
more power than an R6 is capable of.)

 

Did you happen to change the rear sprocket diameter when you did the
conversion? If so, that would make a much bigger seat-of-the pants
difference than simply changing the weight of the chain.

ab

 

I guessed so. The explanations were not for you but I
thought it good to set it straight to avoid further
confusion in this thread.

 

Sadly Rocky Mountain doesn't sell 630's as their prices for RK X-ring
chains are quite good (520 x 120 links = $55, up $3 since fall). People
I respect report they have been 100% pleased with the store brand,
"Primary Drive" X-ring chains... in off-road use.

 

Yes, O-ring (and X-ring) chains really do work. But they still require
lubrication for the contact between chain and sprocket. Its just not as
critical as with a non-ring chain.

True race chains are not O-ring because the seals add friction and cost
HP. Its nothing to replace chain and sprockets every couple of races for
real racers. Its the same for them as for you, chain and sprockets every
one or two sets of tires. The difference is they go thru a couple of
sets of tires per day.

Continue your research by reading what the manufacturers have to say.
I've been happy with RK chains so that's where I started:
http://www.rk-excel.co.jp/english/chain/04leaflet_e.pdf

Says the 630 standard o-ring chain has a tensile strength of 11,100
pounds while same in 530 is "only" 9,200. Thats not really much of a
difference especially in a commuting application. I think a 530
conversion may be very appropriate especially when RK's general
guidelines says the 530 is used for up to 1000cc street.

Just put a "Powered by FreeBSD" sticker on it and everyone will know how
cool you are. Much better than a K&N sticker.

 

Umm... When you are about to use a chainbreaker on one with no master
link that you are about to replace anyway? Obviously when it is sitting
on the centerstand with the engine off... )

--
"Outback" Jon - KC2BNE

AMD XP 2400+ @ 2.18 GHz and 3.5GHz of other AMD power...
http://folding.stanford.edu - got folding? Team 48435

2006 ZG1000A Concours COG# 7385
1980 CB750F SuperSport "CoolerKing"

 

Hey David, thanks for the e-mail, excellent points! The only sucky
thing is that I'll probably have to get everything online since the
Honda dealers here with the exception of one of them, are pretty
much only into offroad bikes. The one Honda dealer that IS into
road bikes is really dominant, and I think has kicked all the other
dealers out of the road bike market with really agressive pricing
on new bikes. (they are also, incidentally, really into Honda lawnmowers
and have them right along with the bikes in the showroom. Kind
of strange but whatever works) However that dealer pretty much
stocks either the el-cheapo no-name Chinese brand parts, or the
really expensive race chains that are all low friction O ring jobs.

It's one of the drawbacks of being a rider in a rainy climate,
very few of the street riders riding out there view their street bikes as
anything more than a toy to play with a couple months out of
the year.

Many thanks, all the good advice on this so far from everyone will
save me an immense amount of time avoiding a lot of blind alleys.

I'll have to get some stickers... ;-)

Ted

 

Ugh, yeah I know that one well. Actually there's probably not a
single mass-produced passenger car today that is really made
to be truly to industrial standards, even the Hummer is a stripped
down HumVee.

With cars you get 2 choices, crappy vehicles that are flashy and
expensive, or crappy vehicles that are boring and cheap. Since
99.9% of the new car buying public knows zilch about car
mechanicals, a car made to be easy (and thus cheap) to service
and that won't be totaled out in a 10Mph collision simply isn't
made anymore.

That's why NASCAR stopped racing real stock cars years ago.
Back in the 60's they still really did make stock cars that were
worth a damn and could be raced, but not today.

I don't think the bike market is as bad as the car market in
that way, but I think it's a lot closer to that than it was 20 years
ago.

Well yes, if you really want to know. My KZ650 which I had
owned for 9 years was stolen back in '95 during the first year
my wife and I were married. Like most newlyweds we didn't
have the money for me to go out and replace it, and as for later
on, well let's just say that new mothers get a bit concerned when
there's an infant in the house and it's father is riding around
on a motorcycle.

Ted

 

I said they "should" you idiot I didn't say they "must". The fact is
that this particular dealer is owned by a car dealer and they approach
the bike market with exactly the same mentality that a new car dealer
does. In other words, very heavy emphasis on selling new bikes,
very little interest in selling used bikes except for real "primo" ones,
(I would imagine they dispose of really old trade-ins through some
auction process, the same way a new car dealer disposes of
the occassional trade in that comes in which is real junk)
and they are only interested in warranty work on bikes still under
manufacturers warranty.

This is great if what you are wanting to do is to go into there and
buy something new - a new bike, a new helmet, new boots, new
leathers, whatever. Due to their volume they undercut everyone
else in town, which is just like how a successful car dealer does
it, and still make money hand over fist, and they have a huge selection
to choose from.

However, just like a new car dealer, their approach does not
engender any kind of customer loyalty, since you know good and
well that unless what your after is something that is a very general
use item, that it is going to be a very, very unpleasant shopping
experience. If I -was- in the "new bike shopper" clientel (which
I'm not and never will be, not because I can't afford it but
because I cannot philosophically accept the depreciation loss on a
new bike, and also because I prefer the UJM's for a number of reasons
which are mostly emotional, personal preference things) I would
use them for warranty work on my new bike and the second it
came off warranty I would never take it back there again for
servicing.

If someone sat down and explained this to them, they would probably
point out that these days 80% of the "new bike shopper" clientel
is just like the "new car shopper" clientel, and trade their new bikes
in for brand new ones as soon as they come off warranty anyway,
so it really doesen't make much difference that their mechanics
and parts guys don't know their heads from their asses when it
comes to a bike that is more than 5 years old. I know this, and
I think they know this, and I'm sure if they thought about it they
would know that I know that they know this.

That still doesen't make me like this kind of business approach.
If you do, then more power to you. I hope you do get a lot of
fun out of your succession of new bikes that you own, and I
thank you because without the new bike buyers, the rest of us
that don't want to take the depreciation hit either, would have
nothing to ride.

The reason this dealer charges so much money and their
markup is outrageous on a simple little thing like replacing a drive
chain is very basic -they don't want the business. Oh sure if
some idiot comes in there and opens his wallet and says "help
yourself" they will do it - but they would rather have their
techs spending time fleecing Honda for warranty jobs. Simple
as that.

It has nothing to do with that. It makes no difference if this dealer
buys 1 or 100
sprockets for a '80 (not '86) CB750 from Honda, this dealers
discount on parts they buy from Honda is based on the total
volume they do with Honda. There are not different discounts for
different parts, that is a preposterous idea given that Honda has
many thousands of parts. And this dealer has at least 10 times the
inventory of new Honda bikes that any other dealer in town has, there
is not an investor in the world that would tolerate that much capital
tied up in inventory unless they were turning all of it over at a
tremendous rate of speed.

I didn't make a general bitch about dealers prices I made a bitch
about -this particular- dealers prices. Some dealers do in fact
approach the bike market like they want to do business with
you for the long haul. They aren't going to mark up parts beyond
MSRP because MSRP is -already- a marked up price, that is
what MSRP stands for, don't you know that? In fact some of
them even price -below- MSRP on parts because they recognize
that even though you may not make money hand over fist on
parts sales, you still can run a nice business on it.

If you reread what I posted you will notice that when I said that, I
wasn't even talking about the dealer setting prices, I was talking
about -HONDA- setting prices. The root problem here is Honda
pricing, plus some dealer gouging on top of that, but the dealer
gouging isn't the big chunk, it's the manufacturers pricing.

1/2 price of -what- exactly? How much do you think it costs to
make a sprocket? Honda subs this out to some firm in China
and Honda specifices the grade of steel the sprocket needs to be
made from, and the Chinese firm makes it up for $2 per sprocket
in lots of 1000, or some such.

There's lots of these Chinese firms that are out there advertising
their services to do stuff like this, you obviously have never
had anything built to spec recently, the Chinese these days can
kick the crap out of any manufacturers in the world, they can
do up a part in whatever grade material you want, and do a
better job of machining it than the best German manufacturer
could do. (that is, if the manufacturer orders it that way) That
is the real reason everyone is outsourcing
manufacturing to China, it's not price alone. If China could only
do cheap shoddy manufacturing then few companies would
be making stuff over there. I'm sorry if me saying this sticks in
your craw, but this is the real truth behind the outsourcing
problem in the US and until the general public in the US
understands it, things aren't going to get any better.

And as for staying up nights - well yes, I think they do worry
about it. Every older bike out on the road that lasts one more
year just means one more lost new bike sale. Honda would
much rather have me paying them monthly on a bike
loan over 24 months than me just coming in for parts now
and then.

Years ago Honda was worried about how to gain motorcycle
market share, that's the entire reason the CB750 came about.
Today though they have market share, and their concern is
how to turn that into a market that pays them regularly like
clockwork. They want their products to last, but not for
25 years. The way most of these manufacturers have seemed
to have chosen how to do this is to make the new products so
complex that it guarentees lots of little things on them will
go wrong so in the end, the bike goes down nibbled by ducks.

A full-blown 2006 Goldwing MSRP is $22,499.00. Not that I
was talking about one of those, of course, but visit a showroom
if you think new bikes are still a low cost purchase.

Ted

 

Well, if people want the performance of these new bikes, fairings, and
stuff like 4-piston-caliper brakes, they should expect to pay for it.
I just bought a nice new bike for $6,000.