Punch Up

Not that either, rather putting the view of the other end of the
political spectrum. As I've said before I am (and act) very socialist in
terms of business administration, I am conservative in social politics.
That means I'm happy to argue and listen to the other side. There is a
growing movement on the left in Europe and increasingly in the US to try
and portray contrary opinion as unacceptable. no surprise, we all know
where left wing extremism leads <feed line>

 

Hog wrote:

You said:

"Oh come now, Egypt is trying pretty hard. The others are moving
slowly along, including the Saudi's. It will take time, it took
Britain quite a long time FFS. You can't change hundreds of years of
monarchy in a single decade."

Name one Arabic country that is truly democratic. I'll give you Lebanon
and Yemen. What others exist? Don't even think of Iraq, FFS.

Egypt has been controlled by Mubarak since '81. Mubarak's presidency is
a joke. From wikipedia:

"No one runs against the President due to a restriction in the Egyptian
Constitution in which the People's Assembly plays the main role in
electing the President of the Republic. However in February 2005
Mubarak passed a constitutional amendment allowing parties directly
running against the incumbent president. As expected, he was
re-elected."

Saudi will only ever become a democracy through revolution. And not
whilst Bush and all other Merkin politicians are behind the royal
family.

All other Arabic states are dictatorships or (quasi)monarchies.
Democracy does not truly exist in the ME. No, they're not moving at all.

Whilst there is a religious overtone, one thing you need to remember
with Arabs, is that they're all brothers [1]. Even Sunni's and Shi'ites
will put aside their differences if they see a brother being
intimidated by Israel. I'm not talking on the scale of what we've seen
in Lebanon, because I can guarantee that if Israel escalated what went
on in Lebanon with a full scale invasion, that things would have turned
a lot nastier.

Take what's happened in Lebanon. Although about 40% of the country is
Christian, 60-odd% is Muslim. Of those, the majority are Sunni. In
Syria, most are Sunni, but in Iran, most are Shi'ite (as is Hezbollah).
Syria openly supports Hezbollah. Lots of Lebanese turned their support
to Hezbollah, following the attacks by Israel. Need I say more?

True. So if Israel starts to cause problems elsewhere, Arab nations
will rise up and fight.

The only reason that there hasn't been so much of an outcry as to the
mis-treatment of the Palestinians, is that it's not recognised as a
state by most countries in the world. Arabic states may recognise
Palestine, but they won't do anything unless the western world also
recognises Palestine. FFS even the UK doesn't recognise the state of
Palestine [2].

Again, I think you're off the mark. If there wasn't so much economic
and political pressure, I reckon all of the Arabic states would be
running under the control of Shariah law.

[1] Mr Blaney could confirm this. I've rarely been to countries where
native strangers can be so close to each other, such as those in the ME.
[2] I remember once giving a training session in Bahrain and one of my
customers couldn't attend (coming from Saudi), because he hadn't been
given permission. Apparently Palestinians are treated as third class
citizens in a number of countries in the ME.

 

Nice of them to support a state which they don't acknowledge.

 

*ding*

 

Yemen? Mauritania? Algeria? Morocco? OK, the last one's a monarchy, but
opposition parties are legal.

 

I'd already mentioned Yemen.

Mauritania, at this moment, is being run by a military junta after
having overthrown President Taya (last year). Taya had run the country
for over 21 years after winning the presidency through a coup.

The current president (Colonel Vall) was named interim leader by the
"Military Council for Justice and Democracy" after another coup (when
Taya went to Saudi for the royal funeral). There are supposed to be
democratic elections next year and Vall can't put himself forward
(neither can the MCJD). Whether full democracy can be restored, remains
to be seen, but yes, I suppose you're right.

Algeria, okay, I concede.

But to be honest, even if opposition parties are legal it doesn't mean
anything (as in Egypt, for example).

 

I suspect they don't give a damn one way or the other. They were happy
to fight because they are pursuing a goal of spreading religious
fundamentalism coupled with the extermination of a nation they consider
their enemy.

 

Its democracy Jim - but not as we know it

Yemen - Islamic state. "Democracy" is limited by the fact that no law can
be passed that isn't in accordance with the Koran.
Algeria - "The law, which Algeria's cabinet passed on 27 February 2006 while
parliament was in recess, provides up to five years in prison for any
statement or activity concerning "the national tragedy" which "harms" state
institutions, "the good reputation of its agents" or "the image of Algeria
internationally"
Morocco - The King of Morocco, with vast executive powers, can dissolve
government and deploy the military, among other responsibilities.

 

What planet are you on? Israel's main pretext for going to war (they had
actually been planning the assault for at leat two years) was the kidnap of
those two soldiers. Have they got them back? Nope - and Hezbollah will see
that as a major victory. As for the other aims - Hezbollah have not been
destroyed, the rocket attacks were not curtailed and the government of
Lebanon (including its democratically elected Hezbollah members) is
unchanged. The only way Israel will get rid of Hezbollah will be by
removing their raison d'etre i.e. by stopping the constant incursions into
Lebanese air space, returning the Sheba Farms to Lebanon and the Golan
Heights to Syria, supporting the creation of a viable Palestinian state and
starting recognise the legitimacy of states other than their own. That
means having to deal with their own fundamntalist nutters (rather than
encouraging them to occupy more Palestinian land) if they want other states
to do likewise. This also means that they will need to start seeing
themselves as a middle eastern state rather than a faux European one.

 

They had those in Iraq, as well, and barring one (un)lucky hit with a
Scud, killing a few dozen, they escaped unscathed.

Missiles are lousy anti-personnel weapons.

 

I always thought the way they developed the Kfir fighter was
fascinating.

 

Now I *know* you're trolling.
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'^' RBR Clues: 27 Pts: 490 Miles:1992

 

I expect it was some hyped up border guards who got carried away and had
*no* idea what they were starting.

 

They told you this? was that why they had to emergency conscript 15,000
soldiers?

2 out of a thousand, meaningless in the bigger picture

That's just plain wrong

I'm sure they were not trying to change the government. It is largely
democratic, fairly secular and not excessively pro Iranian. It just has
an undesirable element, bit like having IRA represented in government in
Norn Iron

The Palestinians do not want the State that is available too them in the
real world though

They have very good trading relations with most of the major Arab states

Well they are trying. "Could do better". Don't get me wrong, I dislike
that lot as much as the other.

Do you mean like Turkey? Dubai? Kuwait?

You obviously read different media

 

Cab m'lad, the USA was instrumental in the UN backed 2 state solution
after WWII

 

John wrote

Dates probably, they are not as good as the Saudi ones.

 

Economic aid - recipient:
$662 million from US (2003 est.)

Source: CIA World Fact book
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'^' RBR Clues: 27 Pts: 490 Miles:1992

 

Indeed and it's quite amazing that such a small country could manage it
even given US backing and the GE? engines. More than the UK managed.

 

Indeed. 20,000 V1's and 3,500 V2's didn't turn the war

 

Champ wrote

Snot the US per se is it? It is yer International Zionish Conspiracy
innit, which just happens to live mostly in the US wot is causing your
confusion. Israel could probably get along quite nicely without merkin
gummint support. This may not be the case if "private investors" pulled
out.