Political naivety

Apparently a familiar sign at B&B boarding houses 50/60/70s. Also the
title of John Lydon's autobiography.

 

So voting in a UKIP MEP ensures nothing but their prosecution and
extradition, does it?

This I would like to see.
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Cuntybollox wrote

Don't worry about it. I saw History being made the other night on
Question Time when ukip were silly enough to put the very aptly named
amerian gentleman up as a spokesameoba for their cause. Even Dimbleby
was laughing openly.

Americans and Brit loving Brits who live abroad who can't provide any
solid basis for their arguments are no threat to the future unity of the
European Peoples. Mind you that is no reason to be complacent about
them.

 

We receive the crap they won't eat (if it's the case, I'm not convinced)
simply because our shoppers are willing to buy it. If it sat on the
supermarket shelves it wouldn't be bought a second time.

We also grow our own apples for cider making, we just have a larger
appetite for it than the acreage can support.

Lunacy? I would have thought that growing things that can't be sold was
lunacy.

We had a managed market complete with subsidies and surplusses before we
entered the EU.

This is the first time you've mentioned this. I don't think it's
indefinite it's just until the European Court of Human Rights has
studied the case.

But as I said elsewhere we don't even have a constitution. We do not
have a "proud history of human rights" and if you want to keep harking
back to the second world war maybe you should look back a little further
to our excesses in India etc. before you crow about how civilised we
are.

You keep talking about race, britishness etc. etc. etc. I'm not the only
one to suggest that you're a racist.

The EU doesn't have laws as such. I believe it works by issuing
directives which get enshrined in local law. Please, show me either the
EU directive that states you can be prosecuted for criticising the EU or
the UK implementation of this.

But *you're* the one making these statements.

You said we got paid to install speed bumps, you said Cherie Blair got
paid millions doing work due to laws her husband had put into the UK
laws.

I haven't accused you of lying I've just asked you to provide the source
for your statements. Of course you're under no obligation to do this,
but if you don't people could draw the (in my opinion reasonable)
conclusion that you have no proof for this and that it's just something
you heard somewhere.

 

You know absolutely nothing about the liberalisation of employment law
across the EU. And the erosion of workers security in the pursuit of
market forces driven competition.

How changes in the economic regulation of key markets will bring
*massive* changes to workplace. None of it benefiting the worker only
the shareholders.

In the case of the recent EU deregulation of the Electricity business has
put back any chance of a focus renewable energy. These are not the
actions of a left wing dominated parliament.

The liberalisation of the transport sector, a flags of convenience
scenario on rail and rail, has been implemented and is beginning to take
effect in the UK. This is not a good thing for security of employment.

So in summary you don't know what you're talking about.

 

I've thought about the comparison with America because on the face of it,
their constitution (with a small 'c') is similar, but I would argue that in
some ways, the states of the USA are in fact more autonomous than those of
the nation states in the EU - or are becoming. State legislature has wide
ranging powers with the ability to decide policy on a whole range of
issues, including social policy; tax (to a degree); and crime and
punishment. Washington doesn't appear to interfere in the day-to-day lives
of American citizens very much. Of course, wars are an exception.

Despite the devolvement of their Government, Americans on the whole are
patriots, and although their unquestioning loyalty tends to be sneered at
by Europeans, it does give them a sense of nationhood; and that remains in
place no matter what they feel about the current administration. How many
citizens of member states of the EU would descibe themselves as European
citizens first? I think it's a crucial difference and to a large degree
what keeps the States of America United. Of course it did take a civil war
to unite them in the first place.

Gosh. Ta.

I do find the way this issue is argued very strange. People who I take to
be libertarian in outlook speak in favour of a Federal Europe which will
inevitably lead to a greater and less accountable government. And although
still a 'democracy' as defined by a dictionary, for the citizens of the
nation states involved this can only lead to a reduction in the
effectiveness of an individual's vote. To my mind it's dangerous to
disenfranchise people in this way.

Is it a reaction against the Little Englander types, I wonder. If a 'Johnny
foreigner smells of cheese', 'keep the Pound' type, is against Federalism,
I must be for it, kind of attitude.

 

Funnily enough I don't. I find it makes me very sad.

The obsessing about the 30's, the focus on Germany, the Jewish
statistics, "European Parliament dominated by left wing politics", the
Churchill quotes, the "proven terrorist" has more rights diatribe and a
complete and utter fucking mis-understanding of the workings of democracy
and economics make me soooo suspicious.

As a 'lefty' theory states I should oppose the expansion of the EU as
it's essentially a tool of capital but as a rather pragmatic chap I
actually see the potential for great benefits and security. Both
economic and physical.

One area of which is we can collectively share the 'burden' of increased
lifespans and the problems of dwindling resources. Without the recourse
to war or the workhouse.

Anyway, I cannot bring myself to associate with the Little Englanders who
have no concept of why we should be proud of our country. Whose own
insecurities make them lash out at things they don't fully understand.

"Economic and political consensus and stability? Witchcraft"

 

*ugh*

 

Cuntybollox wrote

Actually I don't think these people are that dangerous in any real
sense. The fact that they are prepared to stand up and offer a
different viewpoint however much of a minority it represents means that
the rest of us have to pay a bit more mind to getting it right, which is
a good thing. What pisses me off more than anything is the publicity
out of all proportion that they enjoy but that is an argument about
honest reporting and has no place in this thread.

 

sweller wrote

Pay attention to yer history sonny. Back in the 70's the democratic
left, with the notable exception of the unions (leadership not
necessarily members as it turned out), were in the vanguard of a united
Europe. Visions of a workers paradise free from tyranny and want and
two hour lunch breaks like their bosses. Then, as now, it was mostly
the right wing which kept up with the offshore island and it's
subservient population mentality.

 

Cuntybollox wrote

Historical precedent?

 

Cuntybollox wrote

I shouldn't worry too much about it if I were you, I used to think much
the same way when I was a spotty yoof.

I suppose if I have learnt anything over the years it is that Joe
Publics, as a mass, are actually a lot more sensible than we give them
credit for. Witness if you will the brave new future that half a
billion of us are in the process of building in this small damp corner
of the planet.

 

Yes of course. Me and the majority of the British electorate.
It's just sad you don't have the same pride in your own country
that the Italians have for theirs.

riccip

 

but they are foreigners. They don't have white skin, they smell and they
eat funny food. They don't have the england flag tattooed across their
forehead or england tattooed letter by letter across their knuckles.

Yes they are. They are foreigners. It's only foreigners that rape our
woman and that are destroying the NHS.

No, no. We'd do much better if we fully independent of everyone living
here happily on our little island.

The old days were much better than today. Let's go back to when Winnie
was in charge and we were killing those deceitful european foreigners
who were trying to rape our women, kill our men and make our children
like them.

<sigh> how wrong you are. George Bush is our bestest friend in the whole
widest world.

 

you posting according to your actual political beliefs instead of
impersonating a billericay influenced version of Alf Garnett?

 

where is the objective and irrefutable evidence for this really quite
ludicrous statement? And please do not quote the results of the European
elections as they are not representative of most people given most
people did NOT vote.

 

was seen penning the following ode to ... whatever:

Not to mention that she seems to be rather good at what she does so
WTF shouldn't she be allowed to pursue her career just as hubby
pursues his? Hmm? Or does having a hubby who happens to hold a high
office automagically mean that wifey has to go back to the kitchen and
cook?

How quaint a notion.

 

Not in the least. We have no influence whatsoever over, for
example, a mafia-sponsored Italian MEP, or any of the 699 foreign
"gravy train" MEPs who dominate the European Parliament. We
cannot exercise any influence against the army of corrupt
unelected EU officials who are responsible for frauds which the
European Commission itself conservatively estimates at a BILLION
DOLLARS per year. All we can do is finance it.

riccip

 

I don't think I have said anywhere that I thought it was a Bad Thing.
Just that there have been constant reassurances that it would not
happen. We were told a lie. Whether or not we believed it is
besides the point.

 

As a fully paid up member who was charged more than most others
he'd be most welcome. I would expect him to pay in Pounds
Sterling but he could use any currency he liked at home, same as
I happily pay in Euros when visiting the foreign lands on the
continent.

I certainly would not insist he *must* use the club every day nor
expect him to allow me to dictate his affairs.

riccip