Petseal etc.

<AOL>

You learn something new every day.

 

Wasn't the original E-Type one of the last so-called mass-produced cars
that actually had molten lead used to seal seams and joints?

 

This is your fault for x-posting in the first place.

 

Which explains the weld repaired items (often exhausts) which always
seem to crack again close to the weld. Stainless mig welds seem
especially prone to this.

 

ISTR you may be correct. Even today top notch car restorers use lead
rather that Isopon/Bondo for filling dents.
Plumbers lead is much easier to shape properly once you have the knack
but is frowned upon by elfin safe tea because of the poisonous fumes.

 

Heh My dad used to ride as a yoof and one of his riding buddies (Griff)
really *was* supposed to be some sort of expert, until he was felled by his
own limitations/belief. This was a fucking long time ago, and in fact, was
the day before the official opening of the trunk road between Manchester and
Liverpool (A580).

It was accessible though and both he and my old man rode from one end to the
other as fast as their bikes would carry them. IIRC my dad had a Rudge at
the time and Griff some other GXR of the day, but the end of the A580 was
"cordoned" off with concrete posts not unlike a plastic traffic cone of
today, although a little more solidly mounted.

So solid that the when Griff tried to get between two of them, everything
but his left knee managed it. He connected with a stump and produced one of
his very own when the blokes in Liverpool Hozzie removed what was left of
his leg. He didn't give up riding though and ended his riding career on a
Sunbeam S7 outfit which he rode everywhere. I don't think he ever had a car.

 

What I can't fathom is someone who buys someone else's collection of
classics (7 bikes in total) and then spouts abut how much it cost (lots) and
*then* whinges about the cost when he gets what we consider a more than
reasonable quote to fettle them to show winning examples.

One in particular was already fucking good but it had a few "not quite
rights" about it. One or two panels weren't exactly the same colour, one had
some orange peel to the finish and the original decals weren't in exactly
the right place. He even told us he'd be the pickiest customer imaginable,
so we KNEW the parts would have to be mint, so we quoted with that in mind.
We (boy-chic and I) discussed the possible "millstone" of doing 7 bikes for
this blokes and in the end decided that if he baulked at the price, we
wouldn't fight for the work and so it turned out. The first of these bikes
were supposed to go on the show circuit this year, but I know that nothing
has been done to any of them at all and unless he accepts that some jobs
cost more than others, that situation won't change.

We get that shit every other day. A bumper repair and paint is around the
120 quid mark and we often get some **** telling us he'd only paid (say) 30
quid for the (damaged) bumper he'd brought round to us. After another round
of "Well maybe we should just charge you a fiver, or you should've bought an
undamaged one in the right colour/what you paid for it doesn't affect how
much it costs to repair and paint the fucking thing" they tend to look at us
like we've just landed fro Mars.

Yep, but it rarely pleases the thick fuckers.

 

You're welcome.

 

I wonder if you know that any ali based cars (some Audi's, some Porches etc)
can now only be repaired in an "Aluminium Room" with tools that are to be
used ONLY in that room and are not to be used on steel based cars.
(Manfacturers approved dealers MUST have these rooms now).

Even to the extent that a lifting ramp, straightening jig, welders ALL have
to be "ali only".

Fucking ridiculous, but it's H &S innit?

Just think about the cost of setting up an area within a workshop with all
the tools needed and then wonder how much the hourly rate for work on these
cars is. Then wonder why insurance costs ain't going down.

 

Well welding always produces stress risers close to the job, but with the
high boron content of newer cars, the problem is aggravated because the
steel was less flexible from the outset.

Fortunately, Mig brazing is easier than Mig or Tig welding as there's VERY
little chance of blowing holes so I see it becoming used more and more.

 

On Sat, 12 Jun 2010 20:57:09 +0100, "Beav"

snip>

I's not health & safety. If you use the same tools for knocking around
any old crap they get contaminated and can leave residual shite on the
aluminium which then sets up corrosion.

 

Did the "E" type have ANY sealer in the joints?? They were fucking rot
boxes built to a (very low) price, but lead was used "where necessary".
Problem is, Jag didn't find many places they thought *were* necessary. Most
of those old rot boxes were sealed with Cellulose "Brush Sealer" which, as
the name suggests is brushed heavily into and over any seams. The stuff
shrinks though, so cracks appear followed quickly by rust. Seams should be
done twice with a goodly amount of time left between sessions to avoid the
shrinking problems, but that's not going to happen at the factory.

"Leading" joints and seams is not popular anymore for a variety of reasons,
one being it's a ball ache to work with, but the main one being that the
lead isn't lead anymore. It's a mix of lead and tin (at least I think it's
tin) and it grows "hairs" and it grows rust. The electronics industry is
having the same problems with the "new" lead in solder. It's crap and they
know it, so they're constantly working to improve it.

Original lead it too poisonous (apparently) and that's if you can get it.

Going back to Chummy who knows it all, even those people involved in nothing
but classic restoration work (not many these days) the final "pre-prime"
work is done with body filler.

 

Solder had always been a tin/lead mix, the proportions of the mix
determine the melting point and more importantly for plumbing and leading
the eutectic range.

Modern solder is lead free with all sorts of crap added to tin to make
a futile attempt at immitating the original.

A few weeks ago I visited an old fellow a few miles away who restores
mainly old MGs. Probably not a representative sample but he was busy
with his pot and ladle, moleskin in hand, leading some rather dubious
remains of a MG TA bonnet. Much muttering that when his stash of "real"
solder runs out it will probably be impossible to replace.
He must be getting close to 80 so he will probably just retire soon
anyway, it was wonderful to see a traditional craftsman at work.

 

There's a (probably apocryphal) tale I was told about a Vulcan wing being
destroyed by a cheese and pickle sandwich. The remains of which had been
dropped inside at some point whilst the wing was being repaired/serviced
and resulting corrosion wrote the wing off.

 

But it's not like it hasn't been done for donkey's years without cars
falling apart is it, and I'm sure that tools used on ali cars can get just
as contaminated as tools used for other work. How contaminated can a welder
get, or a ramp that the car sits on, on its wheels, or the jig used to pull
them straight?

Anyway, whether it's H&S or something else, one thing's for sure, it's
taking shit to the extreme. But... it pays.

 

Probably the worst tools for contaminating materials are hide hammers
because they hold oil/grease from the first time you use them until
the day you throw them away.

 

How long does it take before someone manages to discover exactly
what's been causing problems for years and then persuade others to
believe them?

We get what seems like endless lists of kit we can't use on the
submarines because different things have left behind problems that
only appear 10 or more years later. Adhesive tape is the one that most
people forget they've got in their tool boxes yet it's banned for use
apart from one brand that has a different type of adhesive.

 

It must be pretty good to have such a wide range of knowledge at your
fingertips (fingertips being the operative word)

I KNOW solder is (was) an alloy of lead and tin btw.

He's a fucking plumber then, coz leading on cars isn't done with a pot,
ladle and a moleskin pad. It's done with a blowlamp, a block of lead and a
wooden spatula. Then it's filed to shape. At least I've never seen nor
heard of leading being done "plumber fashion", but you know best.

He'll probably drop dead with lead poisoning before he retires.

 

Just bought 50 x 500g reels of 60/40 solder

... while stocks last

 

I'm sure that's true, but let's face it, in the automotive world, cars
have to put up with salty road water, flying stones chipping the
underbody paint, little Timmy's wee soaking into the carpets,
squirrels hiding piles of nuts on chassis members, wasp nests, dripped
oil, coolant & brake fluid being blown back into nooks & crannies and
onto paint to strip it, and all the rest.

And let us not forget snail trails in tailgate areas, too.