Perspective

Whatever

b ob

 

That's rather overstated as I understand it.

The Brits still stand behind the yellowcake story. Wilson's report,
according to the Senate Intel Commitee actually did more to give credence to
it than to debunk it.

The centrifuge parts was accurate. They could have been used for that
purpose. I don't know what they were actually for.

Don't know. As I said, it appears his WMD program was defunct.

As I recall, the inspectors did not verify the sites.

Also, you'll note that the one

Means that, for 12 years, had proven inconclusive.

There were several reasons presented. The press spent all their time
speaking about one. Their questions were all about one. Hence, most of
what the administration said, in answer to those questions were about one.

Did the administration also press more on that one because it seemed the one
that got the most traction. Certainly.

Possibly the ONE reason. None of the others. Are you incapable of dealing
with disagreement on any other basis than that the person disagreeing with
you is a fool?

You are right that we can't find weapons. As to "spiriters", I'd not expect
them to be advertising. The weapons, that is shells, etc. that had the
chemical agents filled, yes, they'd have decayed. Whether or not the
chemicals not yet decanted or perhaps not yet mixed would have decayed is
another question. And, his "willingness" was forced by our troops on the
border and less than fully cooperative.

Can we prove they weren't carried off by little green

I don't know how likely the Syrian story is either. I wouldn't put it past
either Saddam or the Syrians.

The operant words in the above are "among other things". A hint....we
didn't name the operation "Iraqi WMDs".....did we? And, as best I remember,
those tabloid journalists we not saying that at the time, nor are they
notably reliable themselves.

That's a good point.

cheers

bob

 

So let's hear some of the ones that didn't turn into pumpkins.

The IAEA and George Tennet both felt they were forgeries. Among other
things, it was pointed out that names on the documents were wrong.

Which part of that are you disputing ? Our sales of dual use chemicals
to Iraq during the Reagan adminstration or his gassings during the same
period ? We also expedited shipment of some Anthrax samples during
the same period, though not much seems to have come of it. We began
labeling him as an evil dictator only after Kuwait.

If the shoe fits, wear it.

No plants or scientists discovered either. Some items sealed by
the U.N. did disappear after we went in. No indication of any stuff
transported prior to that.

I'm fine with enforced willingness. We should have taken advantage
of it.

Neither of them seem to have any aspirations to martyrdom. Without
that, I don't see WMDs as much of an asset to either. You'll note
his restraint in Gulf War I.

They may not be notoriously reliable, but they came to a correct
conclusion in this case, which is better than the adminstration did.

You're familiar with the "Boy Who Cried Wolf" story ?

 

You assume the Italian forgeries were the only evidence. The Brits maintain
that those particular documents are not part of the evidence they used.

"Dual use".........think about it.

We also expedited shipment of some Anthrax samples during

The purpose for that was medical research, I understand.

We began

That's a good point. I think we, as a nation, too often think, "the enemy
of my enemy is my friend". We've supported some pretty dispicable people
for that reason.

This is interesting. YOU are absolutely certain of what you think. I am
uncertain, without making any flat declarative statements. I am, by
nature, Agnostic.....about many things. I am fully willing to accept as a
working hypothisis that Saddam hadn't had WMDs for years. But, I don't KNOW
that. You think you DO know and imply that I am a fool because I don't
accept your certainty as the absolute TRVTH.

"No" indications? I gave you one,... Mossad reports. There are also
satellite shots of many trucks at some of those supposed storage sites
shortly before the war and shots of trucks going to Syria. NO information,
I grant you, as to what was in those trucks.

There is that possibility.

True. And, that's why some thought the weapons might end up with less of a
certain return address, i.e. in the hands of terrorists.

Did they? I don't read tabloids, so I'll have to take your word for that.
Which ones were they, The National Enquirer, maybe??

Of course. And, I grant your point that the credibility of our intel
services, and by extension, our government might well have been damaged.

cheers

bob

 

after reading this... a very simple thought popped into my head.

you... and your daddy... are crazy. and not the kind of crazy that is
cool. the kind of crazy that looks "mildly eccentric" at first... and grows
into something ted kazinsky-like.

i left this place a while back... because you two were out of control...
and i come back... MONTHS later... to the same stuff. only now... you and
your dad... got on bikes...put bail money in your pockets... to go assault
someone?

those people didn't get together to sit around and trash you... they got
together to celebrate a common interest...

wow.

i don't know many people your father's age that would go to such lengths
over newsgroup bullshit (and let's be frank, newsgroup stuff is ALL
bullshit) i gotta say... if either one of you were someone in my life
(father, husband, brother or friend) i'd be ashamed OF and FOR you.

to the rest of you... trying to get anything through to these two... is
futile. find something else to fill the hours in your day that you spend
trying to make the walkers be "normal".

every single post they make... sounds a lot like a manifesto.

i'm going to get outta here, now. this place takes a shit on the happy
place in my head. this is a malignant place to be.

i hope... you and your father really are different IRL. i've seen glimmers
of kindness in some of your father's posts (about losing his father) that
make me think there is more to him than this crazy-angry old guy i see in
this forum.

i don't see any of this as anything.. but sad. it's awful sad. too many
hours have been spent spewing this vile stuff... too many hours that
could've been spent doing anything productive. life is so short... so so
short.

 

<chuckle> Now this post is what I'd call a "manifesto".. hmmm... Usenet
sure does attract some people with strange ideas, huh ? LOL.. Then too..
there's a lot in what she says, it's considerably misdirected.. though..

As I recall.. I've never addressed a post to this person or responded to
her.. Yet.. she has seen fit to attack me in this forum, and in this
manner.. Kooky.. yeah.. I'd sure say so..

Fortunately.. Debra.. you don't have a problem with being embarrassed or
whatever, by any action that I choose.. I'll stand by my assessment of you..
that's not very complimentary, I assure you..

Bill Walker

 

Once again, Billy-boy, you show that your reading comprehension leaves much
to be desired. Unfortunately, you've passed this along to your boy, as
well.

 

When I post to a usenet group, I do not expect that my post is private
and addressed to any one person. I am addressing all who read that
group. Anyone who feels the desire may choose to reply with whatever
thoughts they may have about that post. If I wish to address someone
privately, I will certainly not do so in a usenet forum.

And I still cannot figure out how anyone can be attacked through usenet.

 

She's the sophisticate who collected all those clever photos of you.

 

Yep... that's quite true, alright.. And.. your thoughts on this response to
what Debra Keith has posted ?

LOL.. Keep up, please.. So.. what is your problem with my response to
Debra Keith. ? hmmmm

Bill Walker

 

LOL.. That's what I've been told.. Evidently the lady doesn't like me very
much.. Don't you just love it ?

 

Tennet stated that the yellowcake story was not credible enough
to have been in a presidential speech and took responsibility
for its presence.

And the purpose of the chemicals was "agricultural". If it'd
happened more recently, you'd be calling it damning evidence.

And it's not likely to change. My thesis is "evil dictator sitting
on large oil reserves who had become too difficult to do business
with". (Vs. Uzbekistan, where we were quite happy to cut a deal
when we needed an airbase and are only now distancing ourselves
when we no longer need it).

The world is full of evil dictators, but we've pretty much left it
to the citizens of those countries to decide when regime change is
appropriate.

I pretty much accept the idea of an objective reality that we try
to grasp as best we're able. If everything in sight suggests one thing
and I see somebody closing their eyes and working real hard at
believing
something else, that strikes me as foolish.

If you're a good Machiavellian, as both Saddam and Assad seem to have
been, you're focussed on staying in power. (Saddam was a careful
student
of Stalin.) WMDs are mostly useful on the locals. Especially with
inspections in progress, even if you had any you'd be very foolish
indeed to put them in the hands of Al Qaida.

Al Quaida seems much more interested in home brew concoctions lately
anyway. Kind of a PITA smuggling your weapons in as opposed to whipping
something up in your own garage.

Actually, I would have put those two in the opposite order.

 

Bill, add me to the long list of people who think you are an idiot.

When you first posted to this group about "laying it down", I realized
you had

nothing worthwile to say, so I just ignored most of the threads with
your posts.

I did read some of the thread about your "confrontation" at the NART
get together.

It was obvious that most of the people there acted like mature adults
by ignoring

you. On the other hand, you acted like a fifth grade bully. And you
think that made

you more of a "man"? Wrong. It just made you look like a senile old
fool.

Maybe it's more than just stupidity. Perhaps you should get tested for
alzhiemers.

Your brain is obviously not working very well.

Ron
(Going back to ignoring the Walkers)

 

you. are. crazy.

do the little voices in your head... ever stop?

 

ROTFL... You've been missed, I'm sure..

 

It is my understanding that he said he couldn't confirm it. There's a
difference. That's why Bush said "British reports..."

It is you, not I, who is asserting things, or insisting that things are
"damning evidence". I merely believe that we don't know for certain.

Yep. That changed in 1998 when Clinton established regime change in Iraq as
US policy.

"As best we're able". Yes, there is and "objective reality". And, there's
no doubt you think you know it. The fact, however, that you have an
opinion is one thing. Objective reality may well be something quite
difference. I do not assert that the WMD question is unknowable. I merely
think we do not, as yet, know for certain.

If everything in sight suggests one thing

And "everything in sight" is mostly supposition and speculation. What we
KNOW is that we found no WMDS and that little or no evidence of a WMD
program was uncovered. What many THINK is that this is proof they didn't
exist.

Let us suppose that the WMDS were destroyed, say, 7 years before the
invasion. All Saddam had to do was say so and invite the inspectors to
witness it. He never did that.

Do you remember the terms of the cease fire and the 17 UN Security Council
and the real role of the inspectors? Saddam was to ACCOUNT FOR his WMDS and
cooperate in their destruction. It was the role of the inspectors to be a
part of that. It was NOT the role of the inspectors to turn over every rock
in Iraq looking for them.

As witness twice invading his neighbors, Saddam was focused upon expanding
his power beyond his borders.

(Saddam was a careful

WMDS are mostly useful on one's enemies.

Especially with

Al Qaeda are not the only terrorists. And, remember, Abu Nidal was being
sheltered by Saddam. Whyever do you think passing weapons to terrorists
would be foolish?

And, how much has that to do with your politics?

And, what is it that you think mine are??

cheers

bob

 

Tough to hold your ground when facts and reality are against
you, isn't it?



-


http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/pol/80315675.html

In September and October 2003, McClellan said he had spoken
directly with Rove about the matter and that "he was not
involved" in leaking Plame's identity to the news media.
McClellan said at the time: "The president knows that Karl
Rove wasn't involved," "It was a ridiculous suggestion"
and "It's not true."
Yet another in the endless stirng of bu$h's lies.

"We argued, as did the security services in this country,
that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the
threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners
have now paid the price of the Government ignoring such
warnings." Respect MP George Galloway 7-7-05

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

"Brutal and sadistic? By what girly-man standards? Compared
to how Saddam treated his prisoners, a bit of humiliation was
a walk in the park. AFAIK, No one died or even lost any blood."
-Albert Nurick, a usenet kook and blatant liar, on the rape,
torture and murder at bu$h's Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0512-10.htm

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them. And then
he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did."
-- George W. Bush

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the
will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the
Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...

 

You won't see it unless you start reading and
thinking. Ever heard of Scott Ritter and UNSCOM?
Google is your friend.
Read, learn, and stop spewing ignorance in support of
war crimes and terrorism.


"I bear personal witness through seven years as a chief weapons
inspector in Iraq for the United Nations to both the scope of Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction programs and the effectiveness of the UN
weapons inspectors in ultimately eliminating them.
While we were never able to provide 100 percent certainty regarding
the disposition of Iraq's proscribed weaponry, we did ascertain a
90-95 percent level of verified disarmament. This figure takes into
account the destruction or dismantling of every major factory
associated with prohibited weapons manufacture, all significant items
of production equipment, and the majority of the weapons and agent
produced by Iraq." - Scott Ritter head of UNSCOM


NEXT!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


-


http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/pol/80315675.html

In September and October 2003, McClellan said he had spoken
directly with Rove about the matter and that "he was not
involved" in leaking Plame's identity to the news media.
McClellan said at the time: "The president knows that Karl
Rove wasn't involved," "It was a ridiculous suggestion"
and "It's not true."
Yet another in the endless stirng of bu$h's lies.

"We argued, as did the security services in this country,
that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the
threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners
have now paid the price of the Government ignoring such
warnings." Respect MP George Galloway 7-7-05

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

"Brutal and sadistic? By what girly-man standards? Compared
to how Saddam treated his prisoners, a bit of humiliation was
a walk in the park. AFAIK, No one died or even lost any blood."
-Albert Nurick, a usenet kook and blatant liar, on the rape,
torture and murder at bu$h's Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0512-10.htm

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them. And then
he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did."
-- George W. Bush

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the
will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the
Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...

 

The invasion of Iraq was illegal. Even the head of
the United Nations declared bu$h's invasion to be
illegal.
You sure are ignorant about the world around you.
Why don't you learn how to use google and do some
reading? Maybe then you would finally stop spewing
lies and nonsense in support of bu$h's war crimes and
terrorism.

-


http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/pol/80315675.html

In September and October 2003, McClellan said he had spoken
directly with Rove about the matter and that "he was not
involved" in leaking Plame's identity to the news media.
McClellan said at the time: "The president knows that Karl
Rove wasn't involved," "It was a ridiculous suggestion"
and "It's not true."
Yet another in the endless stirng of bu$h's lies.

"We argued, as did the security services in this country,
that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the
threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners
have now paid the price of the Government ignoring such
warnings." Respect MP George Galloway 7-7-05

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

"Brutal and sadistic? By what girly-man standards? Compared
to how Saddam treated his prisoners, a bit of humiliation was
a walk in the park. AFAIK, No one died or even lost any blood."
-Albert Nurick, a usenet kook and blatant liar, on the rape,
torture and murder at bu$h's Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0512-10.htm

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them. And then
he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did."
-- George W. Bush

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the
will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the
Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...

 

You don't agree that proven facts are facts, either.
You deny that people were tortured in bu$h's Iraqi
torture chambers, and you deny that bu$h lied about
war and matters of National Security.
Why don't you do some basic reading, and lose some of
your ignorance? It's really not that difficult.

-


http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://www.prohibitioncosts.org/
http://thirdworldtraveler.com/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/
http://washingtondc.craigslist.org/pol/80315675.html

In September and October 2003, McClellan said he had spoken
directly with Rove about the matter and that "he was not
involved" in leaking Plame's identity to the news media.
McClellan said at the time: "The president knows that Karl
Rove wasn't involved," "It was a ridiculous suggestion"
and "It's not true."
Yet another in the endless stirng of bu$h's lies.

"We argued, as did the security services in this country,
that the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq would increase the
threat of terrorist attack in Britain. Tragically Londoners
have now paid the price of the Government ignoring such
warnings." Respect MP George Galloway 7-7-05

"They are waging a campaign of murder and destruction. And
there is no limit to the innocent lives they are willing to
take... men with blind hatred and armed with lethal weapons
who are capable of any atrocity... they respect no laws of
warfare or morality."
-bu$h describing his own illegal invasion of Iraq.
http://www.robert-fisk.com/iraqwarvictims_mar2003.htm

"Brutal and sadistic? By what girly-man standards? Compared
to how Saddam treated his prisoners, a bit of humiliation was
a walk in the park. AFAIK, No one died or even lost any blood."
-Albert Nurick, a usenet kook and blatant liar, on the rape,
torture and murder at bu$h's Abu Ghraib prison in Iraq.
http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0512-10.htm

"Our lives begin to end the day we become silent about things
that matter." -- Martin Luther King Jr.

"God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them. And then
he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did."
-- George W. Bush

"Hence today I believe that I am acting in accordance with the
will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the
Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."
-- Adolf Hitler

"To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong, is
not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
to the American public."
-- Theodore Roosevelt (1918)

Don't let bu$h do to the United States what his very close
friend and top campaign contributor, Ken Lay, did to Enron...