Performance figures

Discussion in 'Australian Motorcycles' started by allgoodnamestaken, Jan 18, 2005.

  1. I did my thesis on motorcycle dynamics and frame design so I'm not
    talking from my arse here. Also I'm talking about a racing/rideday
    context, there's other considerations for road going bikes as
    previously argued.

    A narrower rear tyre allows a faster roll response, but this is not
    the only performance consideration related the the rear tyre. A wider
    rear tyre reduces the contact pressure thereby allowing a higher
    coefficient of friction (ie slightly more grip), but also allows the
    power lost through the tyre a larger volume/area to absorb/dissipate
    heat. Think about the amount of time you spend on the throttle
    compared to the amount of time spent on the brakes. The rear tyre has
    to cope with that much more energy being transferred through it. Once
    the rear tyre is overheated it loses both cornering and acceleration
    performance, so by making the rear tyre larger you can prevent it
    overheating as quickly, thereby making back the time lost through the
    slightly slower steering.

    Also look at the different tyres used in different classes of racing.
    In 125s the front and rear tyres are narrow and there's not that much
    difference between front and rear. These bikes don't have the power
    to rely on point-and-squirt riding, so corner speed is more important.
    They rely more on getting into and through a corner quickly and
    cleanly than on out-powering each other in inter-corner drag races.
    Cornering creates a more even load distribution than accelerating or
    braking, so the tyres are optimised more for this condition.

    In MotoGP the tyres have to cope with more mass and more power, so the
    tyres have to be physically larger than the 125s to cope with the
    extra energy transfer. The MotoGP bikes have more power than 125s (oh
    really?) so the rear tyres have to cope with the increased mass AND
    the increased power, and they can make more time on each other through
    straight line racing than 125s can. So the rear tyre grows relative
    to the front. They can make good lap times by using their excess
    power as much as possible, even with their fat rear tyres they still
    over heat them but I guess at this stage it's not worth the
    compromises to go with an even fatter rear.

    It depends on how you the thing is intended to be ridden. For more
    point-and-squirt riding style a wider rear tyre give better tyre life.
    For higher corner speeds a narrower tyre allows faster turn in which
    allows more accurate steering and more efficient cornering.

    As John Littler said there's a heap of other factors to be considered,
    bikes are complicated systems and there's no point fixating on one
    particular aspect and neglecting the rest. If the suspension isn't
    set up properly, changing you tyres probably isn't going to help you.

    Mark

    PS: Yes Dave, wider tyres and a lower CofG do require a higher lean
    angle to balance cornering forces but the differences aren't huge,
    read Tony Foale's "Motorcycle Handling and Chassis Design" for more.
     
    allgoodnamestaken, Jan 18, 2005
    #1
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  2. I've heard this theory before, but my old "high school physics" seems to
    show that friction is independant of contact patch area, and only
    dependent on mass (contact force) and the friction coefficient, with the
    area of the contact patch cancelling itself out from both sides of the
    equation. Now I understand that this is probably only true for spherical
    motorcycles of uniform density, but I'd love to hear an explanation of
    what the mechanism behind what you're suggesting there is...

    big
     
    Iain Chalmers, Jan 19, 2005
    #2
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  3. allgoodnamestaken

    Moike Guest

    I just look at drag racers as evidence that bigger contact patches seem
    to work. I think wou are probably right about the spherical motorcycle
    of uniform density. I think the technical factors underlying this
    effect include the well-researched concept that rubber is peculiar.

    Moike
     
    Moike, Jan 19, 2005
    #3
  4. I just look at drag racers as evidence that bigger contact patches seem
    to work. I think wou are probably right about the spherical motorcycle
    of uniform density. I think the technical factors underlying this
    effect include the well-researched concept that rubber is peculiar.[/QUOTE]

    Yep I agree, and I poked at Mark suspecting he might offer a few clues
    as to what specific ways rubber is peculiar...

    big (aus.moto calling Mark, come in Mark, over!)
     
    Iain Chalmers, Jan 19, 2005
    #4
  5. In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 19 Jan 2005 12:19:14 +1100
    Well... as far as I know, given an ice patch the heavy thing with a
    small contact patch - such as the ice skate blade - slides as well as
    the heavy thing with a larger contact patch - such as the same bod with
    bare feet. The skates just give you warmer tootsies and better control.

    Zebee
     
    Zebee Johnstone, Jan 19, 2005
    #5
  6. allgoodnamestaken

    Moike Guest

    But with the smaller contact patch of a set of spikes.....

    Moike
     
    Moike, Jan 19, 2005
    #6
  7. allgoodnamestaken

    John Littler Guest

    Hmmm, the ice skate being a sharpened blade rides partially on a thin
    layer of water for the rear portion of the blade (aquaplaning), hence
    the differing shape of the contact leads to different characteristics of
    performance, no ?

    Ice skaters certainly seem to consider having the blades sharp to be of
    some importance I was under the impression.

    JL
     
    John Littler, Jan 19, 2005
    #7
  8. allgoodnamestaken

    John Littler Guest


    True and not true !

    Here's the blurb as explained to me (as I recall it anyway :) :

    The explanation of the value of a wider tyre for allowing more HP to be
    put to the deck is not the intuitive explanation every one comes up with
    (more rubber on the road). As your maths above shows the area cancels
    out. In fact where you hold the weight of the motorcycle constant, the
    tyre pressure constant (and the friction coefficient of the tyre and
    surface constant while we're at it), then change the width of the tyre
    you'll find that you get the exact same area albeit with a different
    shape. The skinny tyre has a longer thinner contact patch, the wider
    tyre a shorter fatter patch.

    What happens is that a skinny tyre's contact patch being a greater
    proportion of the circumference of the tyre has less time to cool off,
    hence needing to be a harder rubber compound for the same longevity
    because it heats up quicker and holds a higher temperature. The fatter
    tyre has less of the *circumference* on the road (or for a shorter
    duration when the wheel is rotating). Hence it is able to shed more
    heat,hence can be softer.

    That's the contact patch issue directly, but there's also the effect of
    sidewall stiffness - tall sidewalls generate more heat than low profile
    (they flex more), tyre pressures (stiffer sidewalls mean you don't have
    to have as much air in the tyre neccessarily), tread patterns associated
    with aquaplaning (all things being equal a wider tyre will aqua plane
    more easily). It's not a single parameter of width, otherwise which
    tyres you chose wouldn't be so important to the racers....

    JL
     
    John Littler, Jan 19, 2005
    #8
  9. allgoodnamestaken

    Biggus... Guest

    can someone sum all that up in 20 words or less?
     
    Biggus..., Jan 19, 2005
    #9
  10. allgoodnamestaken

    IK Guest

    Sum what up?

    Are you posting from talkaboutmotorcycles.com, too, 'Gus?
     
    IK, Jan 19, 2005
    #10
  11. allgoodnamestaken

    GB Guest

    Mickey Mouse and Donald Duck and nephews were forever
    heading off to get their skates sharpened in every winter
    set comic that I ever read.

    G, and that pretty much sums up my knowledge of America.
     
    GB, Jan 19, 2005
    #11
  12. On 19/1/05 9:32 AM, in article
    ,
    That¹s kind. I would have said he was a sad excuse for a productive person
    who did some scribbling in a sheltered workshop. After all, academia is for
    people that need that shelter. Right Goaty (et al.).

    Hammo
     
    Hamish Alker-Jones, Jan 20, 2005
    #12
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