Paging those that charge for building websites as a sideline

OK, over the years ive built a couple of sites and they are fairly
reasonable. This is all in my own time / hobby / fun.

They are NOT professional, nor do they contain flash or xhtml or any of that
stuff. They tend to be static html, a little CSS, a little javascript, etc
oh and a yabb forum.

Now, I have a guy that wants a site built for a kit thats nearing production
for lambrettas, not a big deal in the motorcycling world i know but it is in
the scootering one.

he's happy to pay me, but im fucked if i know how much i should ask for
:-( The only other site ive done like that is for a local scooter dealer and
mate and ive done it for him, ready to put on the net for him and i get very
good mates rates for the bits i need.

This guy though is looking to deal on a cash basis so im a bit flummoxed :-/
Ive told him that the more he can do for me though in the way of images and
logos, the cheaper it is for him as it's less work for me.

Sites ive done are
www.thepilgrimssc.co.uk which is our local club

www.iowcaravans.co.uk a scootering mate, got a week free for me and the
family for doing it and had a great time, also get a hefty discount if i
want to go again

The local scooter shop one, ready to go on his domain is at
http://www.thepilgrimssc.co.uk/sandy2/

At the moment, he's only looking for a presence on the net, so probably
between 10 to 15 pages with pictures etc including dyno graphs. He may or
may not want a forum on there too, though i suspect possibly not as its too
open to people abusing it if theyre not happy with their product.

So, does anyone have any thoughts at all on this?

 

Yep. If it's anything more than static web pages then it's going to be
a royal PITA and he should get a company that does it for a living to
host / maintain it. It's not that you couldn't do it (no clue if you
can) but that you are almost certainly not going to want to.

If it's static content then figure out a decent hourly rate, tell him,
then bill him honestly if he agrees - shouldn't take you that long to
knock out 15 pages of static HTML.

 

freelance web designers charge anything from £100/day up to about
£2500/day. You'd be looking to charge at the lower end of that scale,
as you're not doing anything fancy. So, for a 15 page site, assuming
around 3-4 pages/day, I'd[1] quote of about 500 quid. That might be
more than your guy might want to pay though.

[1] I mean you. I personally wouldn't work freelance for less than
£650-700/day. But I'm not a web designer[2]
[2] neither are you, by the look of those URLs[3]
[3] actually, I've seen a lot worse.

 

Then he's not made a very good product has he?

Based on the URL's above, I'd ask him for a crate of beer and give him
change.

Don't get me wrong, they're okay looking, but, well, Basic. Not much
more than a few pages of HTML with some images etc. The forum, unless
I'm mistaken, is simply an install and configure - not like you're
writing the code.

Oh and this graphic is shocking:
http://www.thepilgrimssc.co.uk/sandy2/images/sign01.jpg

 

Bryan wote:

NOOOOOOOOO!!!

Forget about him producing anything that will reduce your time input.
He may come up with digital assets but it won't significantly reduce
your effort.

Price for cash stated up front for any such deal:

x = how long you think it would take you
y = how much you want per hour

stated cash price > 2xy (rounded up to nearest £100) and you want 33%
up front.

DAM etc.
HTH

 

I may have mis-understood what was meant by cash. If he meant fixed
price then fine, otherwise I'd strongly recommend billing on a time and
materials basis, never having seen a project without some degree of
spec ambiguity / post delivery adjustment.

 

*waves*
Design, host and maintain

 

don't get carried away - I meant "up to about £250".

 

site map link (top RHS) = "The requested URL was not found"

 

It really, really, really isn't worth the hassle for how much
they think they want to pay you. Trust me on this one as
I do this for a living.

Any professional web setup will charge multiple thousands
for a business website, and most of those are really only
static pages as well - it's the "design" part that gets them
the cash.

I think you've made an excellent effort with the site, very
nice to look at and certainly worth £500-£800 as a design
exercise, but whether he'll want to pay that is another
matter.

The real problem is the ongoing maintenance, and that's
not just the cost of the hosting and domain name, but also
when he wants a new page added or he phones you up
at 3am when he can't get his emails - trust me I've had it
all.

If it was me I'd say £800 for the site and your first year's
worth of maintenance, then £250pa for hosting and
maintenance after that. Any *additions* will be costed
first before they are done - if he turns around and says
"I now want a shopping cart" you obviously aren't going
to do that as part of the maintenance, but you may correct
a spelling mistake, add a picture or a single page under
this agreement.

Seriously though, the less dealings you can have with
someone over their website the better!

 

Bryan wote:

OK so, maybe I mis'd the requirement to fail to deliver on an
in-adaquate spec.

You posted a recippe for mutual dis-satisfaction and ongoing strife.
Decent hourly rate? Bill him honestly? ROLF.

Materials - what? Electricity? Coffee? Bits?

 

I prefer to think of it as consultancy but whatever works for you.

Which bit did you find amusing ?

Sometimes I need consumables to do work.

I shall now yield to your clearly superior experience in the field.
Have a wonderful day (unless you've made prior arrangements).

 

<AONTL> [1]

[1] Not personally, but I can give you an intro to my friends'
company.

 

"Bryan" said to Donegal Paul wrote:
SNIP

I've never bothered to learn any of it to be honest, Im sure i could but
havent as I personally dont see the point of a lot of it.

Cheers mate.

 

Noted the £2500 mistake
I just have no idea what to quote, £500 seems a lot to me, but then I dont
know, not saying i'd refuse it

Fair play to you if you can get it.

LOL, cheers, theyre not *too* bad

heh.

 

There is that, but you know what keyboard warriors can be like. Also, if i
were making / developing a product i wouldnt mind some constructive
criticism directly to me rather than onto a forum about the product IYSWIM.

Thanks. A *complete* crate?

I like basic, lowest common denominator theory innit? As for the forum, yep
your right, though using the word simplys a bit of a misnomer if youve never
done it before and you were learning as you go.

No, its fucking shocking, but thatll be becasue im *still* waiting for the
proper graphic from him before the site goes live, he's not pulled his
finger out yet, im not bothered as im still getting my discount though, it's
his loss not mine.

 

"Vass" said to "Donegal Paul"

*nods*
Genuinely appreciated, shall have to get onto that when the fella pulls his
finger out.

 

I don't do web development, but after 17+ years of writing software, I'd
never consider doing any development work for a third party on anything
other than a time & materials basis for the reasons Bryan states, and
I'd fully expect web-development to be a similar kettle of herring. I've
never seen a software specification that is not at least *partially*
open to interpretation, or subject to changes which the owner of the
spec will try to suggest/argue should come within the original scope of
work. Life is just to short for all of that tedious mucking around and
niggling.

I don't get it. What's funny about that?

Materials are anything that you need to purchase in direct relation to
completing the job as specified, over and above what you might
reasonably be expected to supply yourself. While it's seldom the case in
my experience that "materials" will be required to complete a software
development job (and presumably this is also true of website
development), "Time and Materials" is very common standard contract
terminology, and if you're unfamiliar with it is rather marks you as a
rank amatuer.

 

It really, really, really isn't worth the hassle for how much
they think they want to pay you. Trust me on this one as
I do this for a living.

Any professional web setup will charge multiple thousands
for a business website, and most of those are really only
static pages as well - it's the "design" part that gets them
the cash.

I think you've made an excellent effort with the site, very
nice to look at and certainly worth £500-£800 as a design
exercise, but whether he'll want to pay that is another
matter.

The real problem is the ongoing maintenance, and that's
not just the cost of the hosting and domain name, but also
when he wants a new page added or he phones you up
at 3am when he can't get his emails - trust me I've had it
all.

If it was me I'd say £800 for the site and your first year's
worth of maintenance, then £250pa for hosting and
maintenance after that. Any *additions* will be costed
first before they are done - if he turns around and says
"I now want a shopping cart" you obviously aren't going
to do that as part of the maintenance, but you may correct
a spelling mistake, add a picture or a single page under
this agreement.

Seriously though, the less dealings you can have with
someone over their website the better!


Christ, I feel like telling him to bugger off now :-(
Admittedly I dont know his definitive needs and wants but email wise, I have
the impression that he will use his own personal email addy as opposed to
one with the url in it.
I've not even sussed out yet if he will want to simply set up a site and
leave it as is, like a continual advert / source of information. Yes if
changes are needed I would have to agree some arrangement with him, though
he may be able to take the site over himself to make those changes, thats
what my mate with the iowcaravans one has done. As for a shopping cart, ive
never done one, would tell him so and if he really wanted to go for this i'd
look into it for him and quote for it, he'd either pay or not

 

^^^^^^^^^^^^
ITYM buffoon.