Paging SIRPip and/or other car fixing foak

I've been poking around the new toy today.

I noticed one of the kingpins isn't fully in place:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58125090@N00/5422120706/

Someone's tried to encourage it in the downwards direction because the
bolt in the top (that just holds a large washer in place as far as I can
tell) is damaged.

On the other side, there was a hex head in the middle of the bearing
that looked might it be some locating pin or other. I just
ever-so-gently turned it with a spanner and it fell off, couldn't really
call it shearing:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58125090@N00/5421522615/

At least this kingpin is seated:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/58125090@N00/5421506609/

Any ideas on how to get the kingpins out, or at least get it seated
properly? Is the thing that rusted/sheared off likely to be some kind of
retainer for the kingpin? It looks like maybe the nut was just a lock
nut on an allen keyed grub screw - what say the foak - drill out with a
LH srewdriver? Am I right in thinking they have to be driven out from
underneath - any tips/ideas how to do that? I couldn't use a WUN-like
press on it as the whole thing is part of the chassis.

TIA

 

That hex thing is proper fucked.

Possibly, can you give a better photo of the side that is working ok.
There's a sheared off grease nipple on the side with the correctly
seated king pin, so that'll need sorting out too.

Where did the hex thing fall off from, as it looks like the stub on
the bottom of the kingpin housing is the retainer, if that's sticking
into the joint, they won't have been able to seat the pin any further.

Strip it down and re-drill and tap everything that's sheared off. You
don't want the king pin working its way out ..

Paul.

 

Some kind of locking bolt not unlike a cotter pin perhaps like on old
yank trucks as discussed in this?

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/kingpin.pdf
--
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| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Aprilia Shiver Yamaha WR250Z/Supermoto "Old Gimmer's Hillclimber" |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+

 

I think what you're looking at is where the where the hex nut came from.
There are grease nipples at the top and bottom.

See above.

You've lost me there.

Uh huh. I'm trying to avoid my usual style of belting stuff with a
hammer, resulting in big repair bills.

Indeed, that could be "interesting".

 

Indeed, I found that article too thanks. There's nothing sticking out
the other side though, so I'm still thinking it's a grubscrew with a
locknut.

 

Ah, I see better now. If the grease nipples are top and bottom,
logically the centre bolt should be the retainer. It depends where the
pivot bearing points are for the steering arm/hub assembly. I'd pop
out the side that's half way out and have a look at the assembly. Once
it's fully uncrewed, hoick it out with a puller or a close fitting
spanner under the flange, it's half way out anyway .. if it won't
come, drill out the centre retaining screw for a better look.

Looks like you'll be investing in some new grease nipples soon enough
in any case.

Paul.

 

Move to a less pikey vehicle.

 

That's never a good thing to do, 'cos you always spot stuff that you
wish you'd spotted /before/ you bought the POS.

It certainly isn't in place. The bottom arm is out of line from that
pic too, so it's all going wrong on that one.

That is evidence of basic fuckwittery and lack of understanding of the
kingpin principle. This is Not Good, I'm afraid. As auvache would
say, it bodes, that does.

That caused some head scratching. I can't see the large hex head on
the 'good' side, so let's assume it isn't vital, as hopefully your
hammer-wielding predecessor never 'maintained' that side. <re-reads>
Ah, I getcha. They're both off. And that centre section isn't the
bearing - they are top and bottom, that is the axle, or sleeve within
the axle, that positively locates the kingpin - or not, in the case of
the bad one.

It'll be no good just knocking it down and hoping, Simon. It looks to
me to be misaligned in any case, so you could damage the bottom bush by
belting the kingpin downwards. It will have to come out.

Look here, this is nice and clear, if a bit american:

http://www.stovebolt.com/techtips/kingpin.pdf

That's the best one I found while head-scratching and memory rattling,
'cos I haven't touched a kingpin in decades and on first thought, all
the memory files revealed were general impressions of sweating and
swearing, heat and hammers.

So, anyway - the kingpin is fixed in the axle beam, and thanks to the
provision of (bronze(?)) bushes top and bottom (which /must/ be kept
greased) allows the steering swivels to, err, swivel. This means that
the pins on the ends are of smaller diameter than the
machined-to-fit-the-axle centre section, which is a close but not
interference fit (yeah, right) in the axle sleeve. The kingpin has to
be retained in the axle or it may rotate and wear the axle sleeve.

First off, you'll have to remove the pin - the bit behind the large hex
head that is missing, IYSWIM. This is the lockpin, shown on the .pdf.
Has it got a hex-head recess in it? If so, it _should_ unscrew. It
has to unscrew, because it is threaded on its back end. Having said
that, it can't be doing much as the kingpin has moved upwards in
relation to said pin, which should not be possible unless something is
fucked.

The lockpin passes through a plain hole in the axle, then a locating
notch in the kingpin and finally screws into a threaded hole in the
axle behind the kingpin. You can't just blast it out. If it goes all
the way through the axle, you may be able to mount an attack from
there, by chopping or Dremelling a slot in it and taking an impact
driver to it - if there's no chance of grabbing it from the front.

If it is inaccessible from the front and threaded into a blind hole to
the rear, then it gets exciting. The lockpin isn't doing its allotted
job, that much is clear from the kingpin dislocation. The lockpin must
be under some stress, however, as the full diameter of the kingpin must
be bearing on it, which shouldn't be possible (hah!) so it isn't going
to come out easily, like.

I'm sort of thinking out loud as I'm typing here, sort of thing, so
bear with me. It is unlikely to go all the way through, as it isn't in
a notch on the side of the kingpin, is it? It goes smack in the
centreline of the kingpin. So it looks like, as you said, a grubscrew.

It can't be doing a lot, so it has probably sheared but it might still
have a bit sticking out which is jammed against the kingpin. If it was
done up with torque applicable to the size of the fallen-off hex head,
it might well be a bit on the tight side. I don't want to recommend
heating the axle itself, either, as that could cause problems.

Before you try a left-hand drill, I'd try slotting the thing and an
impact driver. If that fails, then go for the left hand drill. Once
it comes out, the rest should be plain sailing: stick a bottle jack
under the axle, in line with the kingpin and directly below it. The
kingpin will be recessed within the exle, as it has already slid
upwards by pretty much the depth of the bearing (sleeve, bronze bush,
whatever is in there). If the diameter of the hole in the axle is less
than the top of the bottle jack, find a big bolt taht is a nice fit in
the axle hole and wedge that, head downwards on top of the jack and
bearing on the base of the kingpin.

Pump the jack up and the weight of the vehicle should slide the kingpin
out for you. If it doesn't, hit the axle with a big hammer in a
downward direction - with the jack pumped up - until it does. It may
go with a bang and the vehicle will then fall on you. Be prepared for
this by placing axle stands to catch the thing - increase the height of
the stands as you pump the thing up, or bad things may occur.
Availability of wooden shims for this purpose, placed under the stands
or between stand and axle is mandatory.

You may well need a new kingpin when you've finished, as it may already
be damaged, perhaps by the PO with the hammer or by being driven around
with the pin halfway out. You will obviously need a new grubscrew and
I'd recommend sorting out the other side while you're at it. Then
grease the kingpins until they squeak, and keep greasing them for the
duration of your ownership.

Let's know how you get on - or if I'm off the mark, some more info/pics
may help. Best of luck, old boy.

 

Hah!. Ginged!

There's something that concerns me now. The hex head on top of the
dodgy kingpin, the one that's been hit with a hammer - that suggests
the kingpin screws into the bottom arm. Best try to unscrew the thing,
I suppose. Get some axle stands under the vehicle first, though.

At least you've got plenty of space under there to swing spanners and
hammers, eh?

 

I don't think it's misaligned, but I agree it's as well to take it out
for a look-see.

The good news is that everything still swivels. First thing I noticed
was that it all needed greasing, that's when I discovered all the other
issues.

I got the one out on the bad side. Tried the left handed drill but
didn't have one quite the right size so ended up using (very carefully)
a stud extractor. It came out easily, and indeed is a grub screw. So the
hex thing was a locknut. I guess it should locate on a keyway on the
kingpin, which of course isn't visible right now as it's in the wrong place.

See above, thnakfully simpler than that with this one.

Ok, this is where I am right now.

Yup. I didn't have a bottle jack so used the trolley jack with a socket
against the kingpin.

Unfortunately not.

This is where it will all go wrong knowing my luck with hammers. I have
belted the axle, but I suspect I'm gonna need a bigger hammer. I'd
really like one of these:
url:http://www.concepttools.co.uk/p/SYKES-PICKAVANT-HYDRAULIC-KING-3550.aspx
but look at the price!

Also this seems to be a good idea too:
url:http://totalldvsherpa.19.forumer.com/viewtopic.php?t=2879 (scroll
down for pic) I don't have the materials to hand to make this but it may
be better to source them rather than risk buggering things up with an ammer.

Heh. Reading this of course I hadn't thought that far ahead, so good job
it didn't come out really.

Thank you for taking the time for such a long post.

 

I thought the same, but undoing it reveals it's just a bolt holding a
washer on the top of the kingpin.

Every cloud etc.

 

Heat the **** out of the housing with a blowtorch then squirt loads of
Plusgas on the bit of pin that's sticking out & the gaps between the
arm & knuckle. Capillary action should help suck the Plusgas in. If
that doesn't work, build a plasticine dam around the top of the kunckle
& fill that with Plusgas, & leave it overnight. Then try the heat &
hammer again.

 

Aye I've already emptied my tin of Plusgas into it, another one in the
post. I'm not sure my weedy blowtorch would have much effect - that's a
huge chunk of solid metal.

 

They're cheap enough, set three on it at once & it might surrender.
Drilling the pin out may be your only option, but if it got to that
stage, I'd take an angle grinder to the arm[1] & weld it back together
once an engineering shop had sorted the pin out. I'd pound the **** out
the top of the pin with a big sledgehammer first though. It's not like
you'd have anything to lose, & if it moves down it'll move up again
after.

[1] I'm guessing it's a big heavy lump & removing the whole arm isn't
an option.

 

Thanks. Why didn't I think of that.

<looks>

Actually that might be possible. The axle appears to be held on by just
a single not-easily-accessible FOAD bolt. I'll consider that for plan B,
or C.

 

Strap a lump of wood on top of the axle if you're going to use a /big/
hammer. I'd give the kingpin housing a few belts as well, for good
measure.

Leave it jacked up, with the pressure on the kingpin, while you wait.
Having read the articles and looking at the tonnage exerted by presses
on such things, I don't expect it to let go, but stranger things have
happened.

 

Spraying the bolt with some freeze spray might help too. You can get it
in the plumbing section at B&Q.

 

Well - as I see it, the bottom arm is offset slightly to the left wrt
the kingpin housing, whereas I feel it should be in line. Could be
perspective, mind.

I think you'll be looking at replacing the bushes if not the kingpin as
well, so it must come out ;-)

Good work, that man. You'll need a new one of them as well, of course.
Might be best to get a couple of them, and sort the other side out
properly. Haha!

<blink>

That's a bit powerful. The price alone should fill you with
determination not to buy it - if I bought one, I'd be determined to
never use it in case I scratched it!

The thick plates may be the most difficult, unless WUN or JB has
something like that. The best I've got is 6mm thick stuff, but my man
up the hill may have something - let me know if you're stuck. 12mm
studding is easy.

That's what I meant by thinking as I was typing. I do this with every
job that's new to me - puzzle it through as far as I can before getting
my hands dirty. Risk assessments were my stock in trade for years, so
I guess that helps. Damaging myself was frequent too, and nothing
teaches better than pain.

Stream of conciousness, wonnit. Gobshite, innit.

 

Good excuse to buy a proper torch: they don't cost a lot and it will
always come in handy, too.

 

Halfords sell a freeze spray called "Shock and Awe" or something. Didn't
help getting the centre stand bolt out of the Morini frame I just sold.
That has been left as an exercise for the buyer (duly warned about in
the description). Time and Plusgas is a great healer but that bolt
wouldn't succumb to that. In the end the hex head twisted off the 10mm
bolt.

How about spark erosion technology as the nuke from orbit solution?
--
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Pete Fisher at Home: |
| Aprilia Shiver Yamaha WR250Z/Supermoto "Old Gimmer's Hillclimber" |
| Gilera GFR * 2 Moto Morini 2C/375 |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+