OT Gatso's and cages

"Andy Cunningham" wrote in message

The above is correct. However your earlier post indicated I was using "late"
as a mitigating circumstance for speeding. This is incorrect. How many times
do I have to say it?

Tullyhubbert

 

"Beav" wrote in message

Feck me its another TC, see my replies to AC.

Tullyhubbert

 

I speed in 30mph zones practically every single day, and sometimes in
20s too. I prefer to travel at a speed *I* deem appropriate, given that
not all stretches of 30mph road share exactly the hazards and some
hazards are only present at certain times of the day or night, or in
certain conditions.

This is hardly an unusual approach to driving in the UK, in fact I think
most people would find it frustrating being "stuck" behind someone
driving rigidly within the speed limits for any length of time, with all
the dangers that that activity carries.

Yes it is a calculated risk and there's usually little you can do if
caught other than just accept it and move on. That doesn't make it fair
or just and doesn't stop people copping the extreme hump and trying to
find ways of wriggling out of it when convicted of speeding offences
that are, I suspect, considered unjust by the vast majority of drivers &
riders.

I don't think there's any real sound logic behind the blanket statement
"speeding in a 30 is out of order" and I think you'd probably have to
resort to "think of the children", "speed kills", "it's wrong to break
the law"-style rhetoric if pushed to defend it.

FWIW, the TrafPol I spoke to at the Festival of Speed (they, rather
bravely I thought, had a "Speed-Aware" promotional van there) were
basically in alignment with this view. The offence should really be
something along the lines of "driving at an inappropriate speed for the
prevailing conditions" and the only people who can reliably determine
whether an offence is being committed that endangers anyone is a copper,
not a camera or some other mechanism that imposes arbitrary limits
without considering all (or, indeed, *any*) of the other variables.

 

Well that is your prerogative. I do not share your opinion. The fact
is that somebody somewhere has deemed it inappropriate to exceed 30
mph on certain stretches of road. Invariably such roads are ones with
unprotected road users and the like. The aim being to reduce the risk
of such road users being killed when they are hit by moving vehicles.

However I naturally bow to your vastly superior knowledge and
judgement as to when and where it is appropriate to speed.

It is my practice to stick to the 30 mph and lower speed limits and
invariably urban 40s. Generally these roads have these speed limits
for a reason and are often the most heavily policed/gatsoed. Outside
of these areas it's free reign as far as I'm concerned

As I stated above I'm also prepared to break the law when it comes to
speeding. However I don't share your opinion or judgement when it
comes to the lower speed limits in urban areas. Rhetoric has nothing
to do with it.

I agree. But given what you've just said there ^^^^^^, what gives
*you* all the knowledge to judge whether speeding in a 20 or 30 is ok?
Perhaps there's a school nearby or something similar that you're not
aware of? The problem is you never have all the knowledge you need to
make that judgement.

Something which you are not capable of doing either I'm afraid.
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

<snip>

I'm interested to find your opinion of the dozens of roads that *were* NSL
or 50 limits, and then inexplicably become 40 mph or lower with gatsos...

One specific one that springs to mind is the A38 just below Bristol Airport,
where a 3 mile stretch became a 30 limit despite no accidents and about 7
houses along the entire stretch of road.

Now pretty much every other weekend there's a Talivan parked 100 yards
inside the start of the 30 limit, in addition to the two gatsos.

Public spirited residents have already torched them several times.

 

At least half a dozen more times should do it. It was actually not my
intention to infer that your were using "late" as an excuse for
speeding. Rather that you used it for not seeing the gatso and being
caught.

Anyway, pleasure talking to you, have a nice day and all that
(sincere).
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

Note the word "generally" in my post. I'm not saying that *all* 30
mph limits appear on the face of it to be reasonable. However it is
my own policy to just relax and tow the line and then give it some
outside these areas.

Well quite and given that, whether one agrees with the speed limit or
not, it seems a fairly good idea to comply with a speed limit where
there is a pretty good chance of getting nicked for exceeding it.
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

You say this, but also go on to say...

....even though somebody somewhere has deemed it inappropriate to exceed
50, 60 or 70mph on the various bits of road you speed on. Why is it okay
to use your own judgement in these areas, but not in 30 or 40mph zones?
There is an argument for saying, if anything, that the reverse should be
true; you should be spending your time looking out of the windows and
adjusting your speed accordingly in busy urban areas, rather than
constantly checking your speedo to ensure the needle doesn't creep above
the 30 mark and make you an outlaw. Whereas motorways usually have a
more predictable set of hazards (by virtue of the fact that there are no
pedestrians or inhabited buildings on them) making them a less-suitable
place to exceed the posted speed limits, assuming the speed limits are
appropriate.

What about in the rain? Do you drive well below 30 in the 30mph zones to
allow for the increased stopping distances and poorer visibility? If
it's legally safe to drive at 30mph in the rain, then why isn't it safe
to drive slightly faster in more suitable weather conditions?

Sensory input, local knowledge, driving experience, previous training,
policed by people with the suitable training to determine whether
inappropriate speed is being used. As an example, my road has a 20mph
limit and there's a primary school here. During school chucking-out
time, when the streets are littered with parked 4x4s, children, parents
with push chairs, dogs etc. I, along with virtually everyone else, will
crawl past at maybe 10-15mph as a result of assessing the potential
risks. But, by the same token, when I'm driving home after visiting
someone at 1 or 2am, when the road is clear of parked cars and other
obstacles, affording a better view of the road, I will quite happily
adjust my driving to the conditions and drive along the same stretch of
road at perhaps 25-30mph (I'm guessing - I tend to be looking at the
road rather than staring at my speedo).

That is where we (and, indeed, the traffic police I mentioned
previously) disagree then. A person in a car or on bike should have the
ability to constantly assess and re-asses the conditions and drive or
ride at an appropriate speed for those conditions. This is an explicit
part of the driver/rider training and is and explicit part of the tests.
The appropriate speed, may depend on the person, the vehicle, the
weather, the time of day, or any number of other variables that a driver
is much better suited to judge than a fixed speed camera.

If you don't know whether there is a school or a line of queuing traffic
around the next corner, then you should be driving under the assumption
that there *is*. It's not difficult, and is clearly a safer way of
driving than blindly assuming that it's safe to drive at any speed up to
the posted speed limit.

The downside is that it's much more costly to police than just placing
revenue-generating cameras all over the country, and that is the only
valid argument I can see in favour of the status quo. I would happily
pay more money to fund a fairer, safer, and more appropriate system
though.

 

On Tue, 12 Jul 2005 19:52:01 +0100, "Lemmiwinks, The Gerbil King"

Ok, looks like we're getting hung up on semantics. I did not mean to
imply that I rigidly drive at 30 mph limits. I meant I typically
don't exceed those limits. If I judge a lower speed to be appropriate
then I ride at that lower speed.

But what about those days when you're not at your best, or you're in
unfamiliar territory or when unexpected events occur that you have no
control over?

Obviously these arguments are also relevant at high speeds. However
it is generally the case that there are fewer unprotected road users
on roads with higher speed limits. Therefore if I choose to risk my
own life at higher speeds on such roads, I do so not (hopefully) at
the expense of increased risk of also taking an unprotected road user
with me.

Once again this is a generalisation and there are always exceptions,
but I believe this generally to be the case.

You seem to be implying that just because I don't generally like to
exceed 30 mph speed limits that I'm incapable of doing so without
constantly looking at my speedo?

I agree completely and nowhere have I mentioned my views on gatsos and
their use. My only comment on such devices has been to suggest that
it seems foolish to speed, knowing the location of said devices.

Again you seem hell-bent on assuming that I sit there blindly
following the speed limit regardless of conditions. That is *your*
(incorrect) assumption.

Agreed.
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

You're a sanctimonious **** because nowhere did the OP sat he didn't deserve
it or that "leaving late" was a mitigating circumstance. He's simply- and
blatantly- asking for ways to get out of it and your attempting to preach is
not only sanctimonious but irrelevant.

Still you're not alone, is he Beav?

 

I did not say that it had anything to do with *leaving* late. You've
added the word leaving yourself. I wrote "...and the fact that it was
late....". See the difference?

It was late i.e. late in the day, at night, it was dark. That was the
OP's excuse for missing the gatso. If, as you claim, the OP feels he
has not been gatsoed unfairly, why is he looking for a way to get out
of it?
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

No, but it's irrelevant because neither was used as a mitigating
circumstance. He didn't say "It was late, I didn't deserve it".

Because he doesn't want to get points on his license. It's hardly likely the
yellow box is going to argue the morality of the situation with him.

 

Under those circumstance, you should drive more slowly or not drive at
all. I am not advocating exceeding the speed limits all the time, merely
excercising your judgement and driving at an appropriate speed for the
prevailing conditions.

No, not *constantly*. However I am implying that you, and everyone else,
is incapable of not exceeding 30mph without looking at the speedo more
often than simply driving at an appropriate speed and not being
concerned whether your speedo shows 20mph or 40mph, and that this has
safety implications in built-up areas where hazards can appear at short
notice.

No my assumption is that driving conditions vary considerably and speed
limits cater only for typical road conditions; we both clearly agree
that you should adjust you speed downwards if you judge that the
conditions demand it, but you seem to be saying that it is "out of
order" to ever adjust your speed above the limit if you judge that the
conditions suit it. This is what I disagree with for the reasons stated.
Anybody who demonstrates that they are incapable of judging what is an
appropriate speed should be punished accordingly, I don't think anyone
can really have a problem with that. This isn't really a system that
fits in with your "anyone who exceeds the limit in a 30 is out of order"
comment, which is why I posted.

 

"Andy Cunningham" wrote in message

Simply to avoid the points and paying a fine. No where did I state I was
unfairly gatso'd. Truth be told other than it was a hedge lined downhill
section of road some where on the outskirts of Derby at 23.45 hrs approx I
know nothing of the road or its possible dangers . Its damn easy to speed
without intending to on a road you have never travelled on though,
especially when lost at the time and trying to find your way outta town.

Your having a laugh Andy. I was on a B road last week (60 limit) following a
friend at a distance of 50 yds and speed of approx 55 mph (Because plod was
following in his cage at the time) As I exited a sweeping left hander I was
met by a mother crossing the road with a pram/baby and walking a 5 ish yr
old too. Seems she watched my friend pass by (race can) and then decided it
was safe to cross. (My bike has original can and is pretty quiet) It scared
the crap outta me, I braked as hard as I dared and was able to steer around
her. I'm not sure if I could have stopped or not if the opposite side of the
road had not had been clear. I'm "out of order" for speeding in a 30 but
your ok speeding as there's no risk of taking an unprotected road user with
you!

Anyway these are my last words on the subject .... for now ;o)

And the same to you good sir (sincere also) though your full of it IMO.

Tullyhubbert.

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Tullyhubbert

Oh. Right. Hang on. Err... OK, here we go:

You make me *sick* you lot! You come over here taking our jobs and
speeding around like you own the place. You were probably pissed too,
you Guinness-swilling lout. Shouldn't you be back at home burning
effigies? Grease up, stop whining, and take your punishment like a man
for ****'s sake!

How was that? Any good?

--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - Manufacturer of the "Champion-105" range of rearsets
and Ducati Race Engineer.

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha GTS1000

 

"Wicked Uncle Nigel" wrote in message

Heh, pretty poor but amusing none the less. Listen here Mr WUN, I was on the
mainland as we like to call it, putting cash into your local economy (Seems
it may be more than I expected) I was the poor git who stayed sober to drive
the other piss heads back to the hotel. As for burning effigies, <VBG> I was
back home in time for the 11th night celebrations where the pope got kicked
and then burnt with the irish tricolour as per normal )

Tullyhubbert

 

Using the patented Mavis Beacon "Hunt&Peck" Technique, Tullyhubbert

Excellent, excellent.

I refer the honourable gentleman to the "short-sighted" comments further
up the thread.

Unleaded petrol, I trust? Gotta be gree... Umm... As you were.

--
Wicked Uncle Nigel - Manufacturer of the "Champion-105" range of rearsets
and Ducati Race Engineer.

WS* GHPOTHUF#24 APOSTLE#14 DLC#1 COFF#20 BOTAFOT#150 HYPO#0(KoTL) IbW#41
Enfield 500 Curry House Racer "The Basmati Rice Burner",
Honda GL1000K2 (On its hols) Kawasaki ZN1300 Voyager "Oh, Oh, It's so big"
Suzuki TS250 "The Africa Single" Yamaha GTS1000

 

As I have said there are always exceptions and someone always has an
example (me included) of where arguments don't hold water. I have
been generalising (dangerous business I know) and even stated as much.
I didn't say there was no risk. I said hopefully there is less risk
and *generally* speaking that is the case.

Nooooooooo! ;-)

Well this is usenet and somebody has to be a sanctimonious **** from
time to time. Today it was my turn. ;-)
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

I would argue that part of the responsibility of being in control of
your vehicle and having good awareness of your surroundings is knowing
what speed you're travelling at. This does not mean having your eyes
welded to the speedo to ensure that you are within 0.5 mph of the
prevailing speed limit. You stated earlier the need for (and the fact
that you have) sensory input. That being the case lets say you enter
a 30 mph speed limit. Knowing your bike, what gear you are in and
what speed you had upon entering the road it is perfectly possible to
maintain that speed (more or less) without having to look at the
speedo. Provided of course the physical environment doesn't change
too much up or down or you open/close throttle or brake.
--
Andy Cunningham
Stockholm, Sweden
STX1300A
UKRMMA#17
The UKRM FAQ: http://www.ukrm.net/faq/ukrmfaq1.html

 

It worked for jack Straw, didn't it