One for Des

Discussion in 'UK Motorcycles' started by Hog, Dec 11, 2003.

  1. Hog

    Dan White Guest

    Which is *exactly* why millions more soldiers would have happily died rather
    than surrender, *unless* the Emporer told them different.
    How do you reconcile one with the other? Are you seriously saying that
    *less* than 240,000 people would have died if the Americans had forcibly
    recaptured every remaining territory, then invaded the mainland and removed
    the leadership? Given that nearly two million Japanese had already been
    killed *on the way* to the mainland, do you honestly believe that it would
    have been an easily won affair with fewer casualties?

    Without instructions from the emporer, soldiers and civilians alike were
    prepared to sacrifice themselves en-masse to destroy the invaders. In the
    event of a land invasion, there were eight million remaining servicemen
    *plus* the civilian population to be dealt with. If casualty rates on the
    mainland were consistent with the rates for the rest of the Pacific war, the
    Japanese would have lost another 1.1 million soldiers. This doesn't even
    address the fact that they were likely to be even *more* fanatical on their
    homeland.
     
    Dan White, Jan 2, 2004
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  2. Hog

    Dan White Guest

    Could very well be true, but the fact is that the political officers etc
    *were* there, and the Americans simply weren't prepared[1] for the concept
    of people who are ready and *willing* to die as long as it meant you took
    the other guy with you.

    [1] And ironically enough, still aren't...
     
    Dan White, Jan 2, 2004
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  3. Hog

    Dan White Guest

    He was our friend... for a time.

    Plus how the hell do you threaten the Russians with 3 1/2 nukes, which was
    about all we had at the time! Especially given the Russian penchant for
    sacrificing people for land/time.
     
    Dan White, Jan 2, 2004
  4. Hog

    Dan White Guest

    Ah, k. I was thinking of Mussolini/Ceaucescu types.
     
    Dan White, Jan 2, 2004
  5. Hog

    Hog Guest

    Churchill never counted him friend for sure
    They didn't know or understand much about the nukes at that time though but
    they had seen them in action and might have backed off. What was at stake?
    about 20,000,000 more murders post WWII or summat.
    My point was the remaining Allies never even tried. Never been able to fully
    understand that. Maybe you had to have been through the mill.
     
    Hog, Jan 2, 2004
  6. Hog

    Dan White Guest

    I think that's pretty much spot on. Nobody (apart from the USA) was in any
    sort of state to do anything about it until it was far too late.
     
    Dan White, Jan 2, 2004
  7. Hog

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Carriers: Big flat topped things with planes on.
    Battleships: Big, low things with BIG guns. No-one uses these anymore.
    Cruisers: Quite big (8-12000 tons) Medium guns (6-8") Quite brisk.
    Primary function nowadays is to provide Air Defence for Carrier
    groups.
    Destroyers: Little boats. Small guns. (4")Often used to hunt subs, and
    launch surface to surface missiles. Punch above their weight.
    Frigates: Even smaller. Used as patrol craft, and to "project naval
    presence". Well, we use frigates, the Yanks use a Carrier Battle
    Group.

    Then there's corvettes, minesweepers, gunboats, patrol boats, torpedo
    boats, escort carriers, pocket battleships, battlecruisers, etc.

    None of which are important right now.

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    Salad Dodger, Jan 2, 2004
  8. Old-fashioned "proper" aircraft carriers (like the Yanks have, and like
    the Argies have) have catapults and can carry a vast array of different
    aircraft - fighters, bombers, early warning, transports, everything,
    really.

    British carriers don't any more. Our last true carrier was Ark Royal.
    Our "Harrier carriers" were originally termed "through-deck cruisers".
    They have no catapults and thus can only launch Harriers or other VTOL
    aircraft like helicopters.

    This severely limits their capability, and they're also small (20,000
    tonnes or so) whereas some US carriers are five times that size and
    carry correspondingly more planes.

    So if a true carrier came out, they'd probably be severely fucked. As it
    was, they did amazingly well. But keeping the 25 May (the Argie carrier)
    out of the conflict was absolutely essential.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  9. Fiction, it looks like
    Moves towards thinking about ending the war are not the same thing. Yes,
    they were looking for a way out, no they made no formal surrender offer.
    So, on the balance, faction.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  10. It worked. And it was utterly essential. See my posting on carriers.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  11. End the war, possibly. Surrender.... hmmm.....

    It's like saying the Germans were trying to surrender in 1944.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  12. I can't think of any modern (post-1914) instances where a head of state
    *has* been executed by the victor(s) after a war, actually.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  13. I think you'd be wrong here, but again, it's one of those "what ifs?".
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  14. They must have had more than one, because they totally nadgered one
    at.... South Georgia, was it?
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  15. Like the Argentine junta?

    Oh, no, sorry, they weren't voted into power.

    As you were.

    What people, including me, are trying to say is that if you *start* a
    shooting war, you should not be surprised nor outraged if someone hits
    you back harder than you hit them.
     
    The Older Gentleman, Jan 2, 2004
  16. Hog

    WorkTOG Guest

    The US does, still, I thought. They use them as cruise missile
    platforms, but they've still got the big guns for shore bombardment.
     
    WorkTOG, Jan 2, 2004
  17. Hog

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Fiction, it looks like[/QUOTE]

    And known to be so, when the claim was made.

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    '^'
     
    Salad Dodger, Jan 2, 2004
  18. Hog

    SteveH Guest

    I particularly liked oour use of flat-decked civilian container ships as
    make-shift aircraft carriers. Although I wouldn't have liked to have
    been the person to suggest such a thing.....
     
    SteveH, Jan 2, 2004
  19. Hog

    Salad Dodger Guest

    Bzzt. Did, not does.

    From www.navy.mil

    "Because there are no battleships active in the Navy today,
    this information is provided for historical purposes."

    also

    http://www.chinfo.navy.mil/navpalib/ships/battleships/

    The Missouri was decommissioned on 31 Mar 1992.

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    \ |^| / IbW#0 & KotIbW# BotTOS#6 GP#4
    \|^|/ ANORAK#17
    '^'
     
    Salad Dodger, Jan 2, 2004
  20. Hog

    Champ Guest

    God but that series was incredible.

    Wonder if it's available on DVD.
     
    Champ, Jan 2, 2004
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