NSW: Questionnaire to help magistrates

Following on from the decision in Manly to record no conviction
against someone who seriously injured a rider, the MCC is working with
the courts on education.

To this end, here's a questionnaire for riders to fill in and forward
to the MCC for collation.

The instructions on submission are below.

The point is to educate non-riders who only know what they have
experienced in cars.

Oh - and I've marked this NSW because it's the NSW AG Dept, but
there's no reason non-NSW riders shouldn't answer the questions. The
more info the better.

I'll find out if we can publish the collated comments.

Zebee

===============
UESTIONNAIRE ON CONSEQUENCES FOR CAR DRIVERS

Riders views are being sought by the NSW Attorney General's Department. I
urge you all to respond. Please take the time to consider the questions
below and provide answers.

Return them to the MCC of NSW at for on-forwarding.
Closing date for comments is the end of February.

If you do not wish to be identified, write "REMOVE MY IDENTITY" across
the top and we will strip out your comments to a plain file.

We are working with a "Conference Facilitator" from an external law firm,
provided to us by the Attorney General's Department in a this program to
assist the Court in understanding the views of the motorcycle community.

This follows from what many riders feel was a very poor decision in a
recent Court hearing, where the at-fault car driver walked away with no
penalty at all following a serious crash in which he permanently maimed
a rider.

Quoting from the AG's request: "One pertinent issue is the lack of
validation for the experience of a victim indicated by the outcomes of
the criminal justice system and the attitude of the media. This is a
widespread problem relating to many different types of offences".

In a parallel program, the MCC of NSW has been invited by the AG's Dept
to participate in a pilot program referred to as "restorative justice
through offender/victim conferencing". This is where we will work through
some practical examples before the Courts, taking a role as advocate
for riders.

Please provide constructive answers to the following questions. Remember,
non-riders haven't got a clue for some of these.


[1] In your experience as a motorcyclist how do you know with certainty
when a car driver has become aware of you?


[2] What methods do you use to bring a car driver's attention to you?

[3] What are the major hazards that you are constantly alert for -
in relation to both road condition and other drivers?

[4] For those who have been injured by the negligence of a car driver,
were you given an opportunity to submit a victim impact statement to
the court?


[5] In around ten words, what is the major message you would like to
convey to car drivers?


[6] In addition to sanctions such as fines and licence disqualification,
what else would you like to see imposed on a negligent car driver that
would actually address the suffering caused to a victim and make the
offender more aware of motorcyclist issues?


[7] Given your intimate knowledge of motorcycling, you may also have
a question or two that will help shed more light on the motorcyclist's
experience for the benefit of an offender. If so, please add them.

Further questions may be circulated.

- end -

 

Looks suspiciously like "loaded questions" to me Zebee.
No wonder nobody here has replied to your post.
Of course most of them are either too stupid to have valid opinions
or too illiterate to know how to put their opinions into words.

There's so many bikers being killed on Australian roads that many from
other countries steer clear of your country and come to New Zealand
instead, where car drivers are more aware and considerate of
motorcyclists, perhaps because our courts deal more appropriately
with offending drivers, particularly if a biker has lost his or her life as
a result of a car driver's stupidity.

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 1 Feb 2006 08:28:04 +1300

Loaded in what way?

What questions do you think would be useful to give information to a
non-riding magistrate about how crashes happen, and what riders do and
think?

I wouldn't expect any. The information is to go to the MCC of NSW,
that's where I'd expect people to be sending their answers.

Zebee

 

REPLY to Zebee....
The answers could be taken from quite another perspective and used to
justify various changes such as lower speed limits, bikeless roads, lane
splitting controls, and perhaps even changes to motorcycle license laws.
But of course I'm sure you already know that Zebee, as do the folk
who are usually so vocal in this ng but are currently so conspicuous by
their absence. They need to discuss these issues amongst themselves
and make an informed united response, if any, to this request for
information.

Bikers help judges? Now that would be different. Good perhaps but
certainly different.

And commenting about this important matter right here surely Zebee.

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 1 Feb 2006 09:58:14 +1300

So can any attempt at education.

Should no attempt be made? If we should be trying, what questions
should be asked that minimise the risk?

Why does it need to be united here? The answers will be collated by
the MCC, is that not united?

Discussing things would be good, because people can learn from others
tactics. But people can't be forced to do it - especially by being
called names.

Which is what's being proposed. Care to help?

I think it would be good, but people may prefer to think it over and
do it privately, or figure that such a discussion won't work because
of the nay-sayers generally.

I have my reponses in progress, but won't post them here till I've
thought about them, especially the further questions and the penalty.

Zebee

 

I smell Megawanker......

Stu

 

After a circuitous route negotiating the SiLlY PoStS, so do I.

Didn't properly read Zeebee's post, didn't understand the context, didn't
grasp the response requirements or timeframe, didn't contribute anything but
a whinge, just...didn't...

Gosh! We so do need more people like that as journalists, radio shock jocks
and politicians.

 

I was working on a pre-planned response.

Theo

 

You probably do smell. Megawanker

 

For 2005, New Zealand had 34 motorcyclist deaths.

http://www.landtransport.govt.nz/research/toll.html#fatal

For 2005, Australia had 224 motorcyclist deaths.

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/2005/pdf/mrf122005.pdf

I couldn't find the number of registered motorbikes in New Zealand.

The only fact I could find is motorcycles in NZ make up 1.4% of the
registered vehicles.

In comparison, motorcycles in Australia make up 3% of the registered
vehicles.
Australia has 300,000 registered motorcycles.

Australia has a population of 20 million.
New Zealand has a population of 4 million.
Assuming same % of vehicles per population.

So we can extrapolate that New Zealand has roughly 30,000 registered
mototcycles.

So the fatality rate in New Zealand for motorcycling is 11.3 per 10,000
registered motorcycles.
In Australia it's 7.4 per 10,000 registered motorcycles.

So from that, which country is safer?

(BTW, check my math I might be wrong, but doubt it)

 

Snipped

Yeah Brad but...
Unfortunately overseas people still see it as 190 more
motorcycle related deaths in Australia compared to NZ.
If your figures are correct of course. Interesting figures though. Fairly
high mortality numbers for innocent bikers.
Bikes are great but riding them is risky in both our countries. I'll still
do it of course. Too old to change my
last enjoyable habit now whatever the risk. I like to ride in a group which
is more visible on the road than a lone rider. I wonder how many lone riders
die compared to those in groups.

 

Yet another assumption from you without any evidence. You now know
what other motorcyclists from other countries think? RTW riders aren't
idiots, I think they know the difference in population in each country.
And at the same time an RTW rider is well aware of their own
mortality.

Also in my own Round the World Trip planning, I haven't once looked
into the motorcycle mortality rate for the countries I'm planning on
visiting. There's a shitload more to worry about. (More concerned
about getting shot/kidnapped through the borderlands from iran to
pakistan)

5 minutes on google, from the transport accident bodies in each
country. Rather than plucking thoughts out of thin air, like you were
doing.

Totally different discussion. I just didn't like your assumption that
New Zealand was safer for riders than Oz.

New Zealand has a lot of publically available data on crash statistics.
Go take a look yourself and work it out.

 

Circuit wrote:

An interesting thought.

Personally, I have come to the conclusion that riding in a group is more
dangerous than riding alone.

If you wait long enough the two figures will balance out even, at 100%.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

Allan, it is Allan I assume??

Fortunately, most overseas people capable of booking a plane ticket are
also capable of realising that the bigger the country and population,
the bigger the numbers will be, hence some clever bugger invented the %
sign to make it easier for people like you to understand the
difference. I might struggle at statistics, but you haven't even
managed the word comparative.

If you're not Allan, Googlegroup the word megawanker, it may be a shock
to realise, but you have a twin.

 

By the sound of you Stuart it's triplets.

 

At least what I said has encouraged a bit of discussion. I still believe
New Zealand is a safer place to ride a motorcycle than Australia.
I'd certainly not want to visit places like Iran regardless of what form
of transport I was using.

 

Yeah right, the only way "overseas people" even KNOW what the road toll
is in another country is if someone with an axe to grind starts bandying
around some numbers, and anyone dumb enuogh to listen to you deserves
the consequences of stupidity

JL

 

No. What you said encouraged derision of your stupidity.

JL
(**** I hope school goes back soon)

 

You sound a bit sore JL
It wasn't me quoting those numbers if you read the thread you'll
realise I'm using somebody elses as a reference. As for having
an axe to grind, I used the figures quoted so thoroughly by Brad
to illustrate my contention that 34 deaths in NZ seemed small
when Australia in the same year had 190 more. Anyone reading
this who might intend visiting either country will be able to make
their own mind up about which is the safer place to ride bikes.
The information discussed here will obviously help them decide.
From the comments made in various threads in this ng recently
headed "Rider Down" etc anyone might be excused for thinking
there was a serious safety problem in Australia, which is now
the subject of this thread, with ordinary bikers being asked for
their opinions to assist judges. So are you saying it's not as
serious as it seems?

 

You a fucking kiwi or a Yank ? Twat.

No I'm saying you're a fucking idiot, as your last foray showed, and
you've shown again

<plonk>

JL