My first bike: Helmet & California License Question

Jim Newton · Sep 7, 2007

That's a very intersting site but it has nothing to do with
California. Note that it says that 39 states have adopted the test it
addresses. California is not one of them.
Click to expand...

This is all a very interesting discussion. I've learned a lot!
Here is a photo of a test in progress, albeit on a very small bike.

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/6595/CA_DMV_TEST_IN_PROGRESS.gif

Notice the very heavy right foot pressure, with a concurrent tight grip of
the left hand, and lots and lots of throttle to maintain constant momentum
without too much lean.

One tiny mistake, and you fail, so you have to practice this until you pass
100 percent of the time!

J. Clarke · Sep 7, 2007

Jim said:

First off, tickets for speeding don't mean you're a "bad" rider -
they just mean you're a fast rider. Especially if you are in the
Gestapo State (those of you in that state know which it is). On
average, you'll get dozens more tickets from speed traps in the
Gestapo state than in any other state in the nation, based on
published statistics.

Having said that, you actually think this California DMV riding test
is "simple"? Did you ever try it? I'd bet most of you couldn't pass
it on a bicycle. Before you say "I could pass it on a Gold Wing with
my eyes blindfolded", just try it ONCE. Just once. With an observer
grading you.

I'll bet you'll change your mind in less time than it took you to
post this message, after that experience.
Click to expand...

Nope. If I didn't pass it then my reaction would be "oh, crap, I
didn't practice enough", not that "the test is hard".

J. Clarke · Sep 7, 2007

Chuck said:

J. Clarke wrote this on Thu, 06 Sep 2007 09:47:57 -0400. My reply
is
below.

Why? I think more people would be inclined to pony up for the
course
if they thought it conveyed significant results.
Click to expand...

Define "significant results".

What? According to the scuttlebutt (literally drinking-fountain
gossip) I hear, the course has been dumbed down from what it used to
be.
Click to expand...

So people at your job have taken it multiple times? _Why_?

Paladin · Sep 7, 2007

.....

Yes. I know EXACTLY what the California Vehicle Code states about "Lane
Splitting". The answer (drumroll) ... ... ... absolutly nothing!
Click to expand...

27803. (a) A driver and any passenger shall wear a safety helmet....
(f) This section does not apply to a person operating, or
riding as a passenger in, a fully enclosed three-wheeled.....

21714. The driver of a vehicle described in subdivision (f) of
Section 27803 shall not do either of the following:
(a) Operate the vehicle in any lane established under Section
21655.5 as an exclusive or preferential use lane for high-occupancy
vehicles.
(b) Operate the vehicle in either of the following:
(1) The area on, or immediately adjacent to, the striping or other
markers designating adjacent traffic lanes.
(2) The area between two or more vehicles that are traveling in
adjacent traffic lanes.

The California Vehicle Code states that Three-Wheeled "Motorcycles"
that are enclosed and wide and heavy may be driven without wearing a
motorcycle helmet, and may NOT operate between lanes (splitting) --
with the implication that such is legal for other motorcycles.
.....

The only law about lane sharing is that there isn't a law prohibiting lane
sharing. The MSF class got it all wrong.

At least, did I get it right?
Click to expand...

No, the CVC does prohibit lane sharing by a single class of
motorcycles.

Paladin · Sep 7, 2007

.....

Thank you, Patty. What I was told originally is correct. But, Why did
they make me take the lollipop over again?
Click to expand...

They're bureaucrats. They share the intelligence of a moron.
Occasionally you'll find someone with common sense that has snuck past
their screening process -- but don't worry, he or she will soon be
fired for excessive competency.

curvedog · Sep 7, 2007

I took the DMV lollipop test, & passed it, at least a decade before
the MSF existed.
Click to expand...

The MSF lobbied the DMV to change the dimensions and criteria of the
keyhole test.

The test you took, and most importantly, the criteria (no foot, no stops,
no touching of cones, not one inch outside the lines for both wheels, both
directions of the circle, multiple loops, swerve entry and exit,
straight-line entry and exit, etc. IS ALL DIFFERENT THAN A DECADE AGO.

Expressly due to the MSF!

VirginiaBob · Sep 7, 2007

Not enough respect, obviously. Riding a motorcycle is a skill. You may
not have mastered it, but many others have.
Click to expand...

I think that's the whole point.

The only way to pass the ca dmv driving test is to master the skill of
biking. No other state requires a master to have a license.

The funny thing is you don't even need to take the test to ride legally in
california for an entire year on a permit with no test at all!

Wierd state that Ca.

Bob Myers · Sep 7, 2007

VirginiaBob said:

I think that's the whole point.

The only way to pass the ca dmv driving test is to master the skill of
biking. No other state requires a master to have a license.
Click to expand...

Exactly. But they SHOULD. At least, they should require
demonstrated skills to the level of the CA test or similar.
It isn't all THAT hard. The failure rate is not really a measure
of how difficult the test is, but rather how many show up for
it ill-prepared.

One thing I've been wanting to ask all of those who are
bitching here about the "impossible" CA test - how often
do you find an empty parking lot or some such and actually
practice your low-speed manuevering skills? How many
times have you done this in, say, the last six months?

Based on what I see almost every day, with people trying
to wrestle their half-ton cruisers in and out of the lot at the
local supermarkets - I'd have to guess the answers to both
the questions above is "never."

Bob M.

Paul Elliot · Sep 7, 2007

I took the DMV test in 1978 after riding without a license for 8 years.
I used a Honda CL 175 and passed with no problem. I'm pretty sure that
they have tightened up the judging standard, but the test itself sounds
like it is still the same as what I remember.

--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

David said:

That is exactly what is is designed to be. The MSF Basic RiderCourse is
supposed to be for the novice rider. I go on the assumption that the
students have never been on a bike before and have zero riding
experience. So, yes you might call it motorcycle kindergarten.

I am sorry that you had to deal with that type of RiderCoach. Maybe your
perception of the course would be different, if you had a coach that ran
the class the way it was supposed to be. You can't have a lot of
confidence in a course when the coach is has little or no clue about the
subject he is speaking about.

Let me ask you a question, Bob. Do you know what the Calif. Vehicle Code
states about the subject of "Lane Splitting", or "Land Sharing"? Not
many riders do. The coach you had in your class should have known. That
question has come up in every course that I have taught, and MSF has
supplied us with documentation that addresses that very subject.

At the end of each course, I tell the students what they learned in the
course is the "basics" of motorcycle riding and they should in no way
they should consider themselves "expert" riders (students with riding
experience know that I am not including them). I suggest that they take
their bikes to places like large parking lots or secluded streets and
get lots of practice before they get out in actual traffic situations.
The city I live is has an industrial area that is pretty vacant on
weekends. It has traffic signals, stop signs, left and right turns, and
the occasional car or two. It is a perfect place to work on your riding
technique, without getting into major traffic.

BTW, the only thing that the DMV test proves is that you know how to
ride in circles at slow speed. How does that show how proficient you
will be on the street, in traffic??
Click to expand...

Hell, I ride in slow circles in traffic all the time.
I think it's an inner ear thing...

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

David said:

And being a coach, I learn new things also. I may have a student come up
with a question that I can't answer. I give all the students my e-mail
addy and tell if them to send me any questions that I was unable to
answer in class. When they do, I find the answer, send it to the student
and I have that knowledge for future classes. I don't know it all and
I'm not afraid to admit it.
Click to expand...

Teaching is for sure the best way to learn. When I was a hang gliding
instructor, students would sometimes ask questions about things I'd
never considered. It made me a better teacher as well as a better pilot.

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Beav said:

Does this mean that going on an MSF course can result in a person being
taught by someone who could pass on bad habits? My God, it's just like
getting a friend in to do the instructing.

You can't have a lot of

And how would one know before they went? At least if someone has her brother
doing the intial helping out, she'll have a rough idea of his capabilities
as both a rider and an instructor.

So the MSF isn't what it should be?

Absolute shite course then. And I make no apologies for saying that. If
someone comes to me for instruction, they CAN ride properly, confidently and
safely and I'm not a "class". To run a course on motorcycle riding and then
have the "passed out" students take themselves off to a parking lot is
bordering on the utterly ridiculous. Actually, forget the "bordering", it IS
ridiculous.

Not much point when all of us ride IN traffic.

And how, exactly, does the MSF course differ? You've already said yourself
that you advise your students to stay away from traffic and practise in a
parking lot.
Click to expand...

It's kinda hard to ride when you're passed out...

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Michael said:

Hi barb,
You missed the point.

Assume the rider is VERY EXPERIENCED but out of state and merely wishes to
have a California motorcycle license?

The "system" forces them to take the "kindergarten" MSF class.
Click to expand...

I don't think so. You can just take the silly parking lot test, which is
a piece of cake for a very experienced rider. (the secret to going
around that stupid circle is, stay off the front brake!)

That said, it would annoy the living heck out of me to have to take the
beginner's class.

There is no other viable alternative.

They can't take the advanced rider class because it doesn't count (Reason?
$$$$ into the MSF coiffers) ... and they can't take the DMV keyhole test on
their own bike because it's ridiculous and it isn't worth dropping the bike
in the very many hours of practice it would take to consistently pass the
test enough to reach the 90% point given they give zero tolerance.

So, the point is for experienced riders, the California system is
ridiculous.

I do agree with you for the basic riders but we're not talking about them
in this discussion, are we?
Click to expand...

I reckon not. But the person who started this thread is a beginner, so
you can understand my confusion.
--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Michael said:

With all due respect, I've taken that California DMV test. I very seriously
doubt you did it on anything of the sort.

I wish we could find the California DMV records which show which bikes
"tried" to pass the lollipop test and which ones did.

While I very seriously doubt you "did it on a Goldwing" (as I've heard this
before) is there any way we can actually find out the real statistics of
which bikes passed and which failed?

Since I took the CA DMV keyhole test, I KNOW they ask what the bike you're
on is - so the information MUST be somewhere.

That's all I'll believe. Sorry.

For all of us....

Can anyone speak the truth as to the real statistics of the millions of
California riders who "attempted" to take the California lollipop test?
Click to expand...

I passed it. At the time, I had a R65 and a Honda NX250. I chose to take
it on the Honda. After I passed, I loaned my bike to a guy who had a big
Guzzi, because he was concerned about the circle. He did fine on my bike.

As far as passing the test on a 'Wing, I doubt I could do it. I could do
it on my beemer, one day I was going by the DMV when it was closed, and
tried out the circle a few times on a whim. First loop, oops. The other
four times I did fine, although I seem to have more trouble when
circling to the right. I wonder if the rotation of the drive shaft has
anything to do with that.

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

Paul Elliot · Sep 7, 2007

The state of California used to have a special "Traffic School" for
motorcycles (alternate to paying a traffic ticket and having it on your
record) that pretty much mirrored what MSF teaches. I took that class
back in 1981 or so and got a great deal out of it. They even taught us
to ride in circles at full lock by regulating our speed using the
clutch. Great stuff. I don't know if this is still available.

--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Michael said:

Uh, actually, that's the whole point.

It's all related, ever so discreetly.

The MSF is in cohoots with the DMV to get the DMV to create a stupid test
that forces experienced riders into the MSF basic rider class without
allowing them to take the advanced class instead.

Everyone but you wins.

- The Ca DMV wins because they don't have to administer millions of tests
- The MSF wins (big time) because they make hundreds of millions of
hundreds of dollars on this scam

Is it just me who sees what's really going on here for experienced riders?
Click to expand...

I guess not. I took the test and passed it the first time.
Now, back in the 70s, California had the king-hell of all skill tests!
I took it when I got out of the Army and returned to Cali, and failed
miserably. In part, it was because I learned on a BSA, and tried to take
the test on a Honda. Every time I went to shift, I put the brake on! D'oh!

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Marco said:

heh.... just a little bit of hyperbole in those statements.
Just how many new riders do you think take the test yearly,
statewide. Tens of thousands, certainly not millions.
Lets see... Newest statistics I can find are for 2004.

2004: 1,015,488 M1 license endorsements
2003: 975,681 M1 license endorsements

So there were just under 40,000 new endorsements issued in California
in 2004.

As for your "hundreds of millions of hundreds of dollars" claim...
BAMT charges $235 for adults, $150 for those under 21 (the ones
forced to take the class by law). I haven't a clue as to how
much of that is to pay for the venue, how much to insurance, how
much to msf, and how much BAMT gets to keep. Even if MSF got 100%
and everyone was an adult you're still an order of magnitude
too high.

I took the "riding around the circle" test to get my M1 when I moved
back to California in the early 80s. No big deal. I've since
taken the ERC course because I was curious as to what they were
teaching (and also courious as to how many bad habits I'd picked
up over the years). It was worth whatever I paid for it (forget
how much).

// marc
Click to expand...

I'd kind of like to take the advanced course as well. Who knows what
I've been doing wrong all these years?

I'm sure I'd learn something new, and it'd be fun. One of these days...

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Patti said:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/dl/dl_info.htm#two500

This suggests that you have to do the vision test and the
written, but not the driving test when you move a drivers
license. Since a motorcycle license is really just a drivers
license with an extra couple of letters on it, I believe it's
the same thing.

If I had a few minutes, I'd call the DMV and find out for sure.

-Patti
Click to expand...

Eh...it's all voice mail these days. Press one for Spanish. It's okay if
you're making an appointment, but pretty annoying otherwise.

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

David said:

So, you and I both with out-of-state licenses, be in the same line, you
get the test waived but, me right behind you had to take all the tests.
How stupid is that. Do it one way or the other. Leave it up to the
Government. I heard some say, "To err is human, To really screw things
up requires the government". Or, what are the nine worst word a person
can hear? "I'm from the Government, and I'm here to help".
Click to expand...

Hm. Your attitude wouldn't have anything to do with it, ya think?

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

barb · Sep 7, 2007

Jim said:

This is all a very interesting discussion. I've learned a lot!
Here is a photo of a test in progress, albeit on a very small bike.

http://img72.exs.cx/img72/6595/CA_DMV_TEST_IN_PROGRESS.gif

Notice the very heavy right foot pressure, with a concurrent tight grip of
the left hand, and lots and lots of throttle to maintain constant momentum
without too much lean.

One tiny mistake, and you fail, so you have to practice this until you pass
100 percent of the time!
Click to expand...

And when you can, you will prove that you are highly skilled at going
around in circles!

--
barb
Chaplain, ARSCCwdne

buy my book!
http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=1198812

read my blog!
http://xenubarb.blogspot.com/

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