My first bike: Helmet & California License Question

The joke is that California makes someone coming into the state with a
valid driver's license take a test at all. In most states you just
give them your old license and fill out a form. So you have to go
through the motions to satisfy the system. One more reason to stay
out of that benighted state.

 

I suspect that the key word in this whole discussion is *expect*. About
100 years ago, states concluded that they needed to regulate the use of
the public highways in the interest of safety. Driver licensing has
always been a compromise because the state's assertion that "driving is
a privilege and not a right" doesn't really sit well alongside our
fundamental notion that this is a free country. So we have a system
where virtually anyone can get a license to drive and barring egregious
behavior, keep it.

The state is also limited in the resources it is willing to make
available to ensure driver competency, and incentivizing citizens to
obtain additional instruction and training through programs like MSF,
high school Driver Education, senior driving courses and traffic school
makes sense. The proper baseline for evaluating these supplemental
programs is not how do the graduates compare to good drivers, but how do
they compare to those who obtain licenses without them.

It runs against my nature to say it, but perhaps this glass is, after
all, half full.

Rich, Urban Biker

 

You really think that the whole point of this requirement is to make
money for MSF? It looks to me like it's just a totally screwed up
system--if you read the fine print, if you've been a legal resident of
California for 10 days then you have to have a learner's permit and
can't drive without a licensed driver sitting in the car with you
until you pass the driving test. Clearly the big problem is that they
don't treat people moving from out of state with valid out of state
licenses any differently than they do California residents who have
never had a license anywhere before.

But if you really are an experienced rider then I don't see the
problem with just laying out a practice course somewhere and
practicing until you can pass the test. If your skills are such that
you're afraid that you're going to drop the bike while practicing
going around a circle or weaving between cones then you aren't as
experienced as you think you are.

 

What is ridiculous is that California doesn't extend full faith and
credit to the acts of other states in licensing motorcyclists, though it
will accept without question their records of traffic violations.
Perhaps an interstate compact simplifying the transfer of drivers
licenses and motorcycle endorsements as people change states of
residence is in order.

 

You obviously have never seen nor taken the California keyhole test.

There's a diagram of it somewhere on the web in a PDF file I remember
seeing. And a few photographs I remember long time ago.

Once you see the test, draw it in your driveway, and, then you MUST have an
impartial observer (everyone "passes" the test when they are their own
judge).

Tell the impartial observer that you FAIL the MOMENT either wheel crosses
the lines (which are a series of straights going directly into a circle you
will never see (and pleeeeeease don't tell me you're supposed to look ahead
as you'd be looking over your shoulder as ahead is to your side such that
you just have to guess where the lines lie).

Then come back to this newsgroup and tell us to practice until we pass that
test.

 

You obviously have never taken the California lollipop test!

It's like a mine field. Nobody can know what it's like unless they've
actually taken the test themselves (which, by the way, the DMV won't tell
you what it is nor let you practice for it) and had an observer grade them.

Think of it this way. It's like being an experienced eater and then having
your wife's mother grade you while you eat a bowl of pasta with a white
shirt and bowtie on.

After you've done that, THEN tell us how "experience" plays any role.

 

We agree.

I think the whole point of the California keyhole test is to funnel even
experienced riders into the MSF Basic Rider class.

If the intent was to "teach" riders, then they'd allow people to take the
advanced rider class ... but they don't.

WHich proves the point that it's all about money.

 

With all due respect, I've taken that California DMV test. I very seriously
doubt you did it on anything of the sort.

I wish we could find the California DMV records which show which bikes
"tried" to pass the lollipop test and which ones did.

While I very seriously doubt you "did it on a Goldwing" (as I've heard this
before) is there any way we can actually find out the real statistics of
which bikes passed and which failed?

Since I took the CA DMV keyhole test, I KNOW they ask what the bike you're
on is - so the information MUST be somewhere.

That's all I'll believe. Sorry.

For all of us....

Can anyone speak the truth as to the real statistics of the millions of
California riders who "attempted" to take the California lollipop test?

 

It's a 20 foot diameter circle with a 2.5 foot wide lane and a weave
between cones (they use painted circles but it's the same idea).

No magic there. You don't even have to make a sharp turn to enter the
circle.

My driveway is not 20 feet wide. I'd do it at the cul-de-sac down the
street.

Put soda bottles on the lines. Knock one down you failed. No need
for an "impartial observer". And supposedly they only fail you if the
_front_ goes outside the lines.

So you're saying that no amount of practice is sufficient to pass that
test?

 

I can't find anything in the California code that suggests that that
makes a difference.

Just to be clear, was that the California DMV test?

As one should be able to tell from the title. Generally experienced
riders aren't asking about "my first bike".

 

Huh. They teach an advanced rider class every weekend, not far from
where I live:

http://www.motorcycleschool.com/sanfrancisco/index.html

 

In most states, you have to pass a written test but not a
driving/riding test to transfer an existing license. California
is exactly the same in this regard.

An experienced rider with a liter bike almost certainly has a
valid license from another state, and therefore does not have
to take the test or the MSF class.

-Patti

 

Okay, looking at that way, the situation entirely sucks. But none of
this is a reason for slagging the whole MSF class. You should be
slagging the testing methods that the CA DMV uses.

 

That's close enough. The circle is 20 feet to the inside line and the width
counting the two lines is 2 feet 3 inches and they do use cones, really
small 1-foot cones on the five painted dots in the weave section.

Depends on how you define "sharp" since you have to head in straight and
then immediately turn one way all keeping within the lines and then exit
the other way after two complete circles, where the intersection is a 90
degree intersection at the 5 o'clock and 7 o'clock position on the circle.

Here is a complete diagram with complete instructions.
SAVE THIS as it's probably the best there is on the web.
http://www.ducatigirl.com/california/dmv_moto_test.pdf

This information is good enough to post separately and save!

 

Uh .... what was the title of this thread again?

 

http://www.ducatigirl.com/california/dmv_moto_test.pdf

 

Uh, actually, that's the whole point.

It's all related, ever so discreetly.

The MSF is in cohoots with the DMV to get the DMV to create a stupid test
that forces experienced riders into the MSF basic rider class without
allowing them to take the advanced class instead.

Everyone but you wins.

- The Ca DMV wins because they don't have to administer millions of tests
- The MSF wins (big time) because they make hundreds of millions of
hundreds of dollars on this scam

Is it just me who sees what's really going on here for experienced riders?

 

That's not the impression I got from the DMV site. Is it in error or
just misleading? If all one has to do is present one's existing
license then I don't see what all the bellyaching is about.

 

And if you look at that there are no "90 degree intersections", more
like 120 degrees.