My first bike: Helmet & California License Question

I'm sure you're doing an excellent job, but the 4 finger thing is
baloney

It doesn't provide better braking or clutch control, and there is no
significant safety advantage. You need to be able to keep control of
the throttle and hold on to the handle bars for steering input at all
times, which requires at least 2 fingers (counting the thumb) on the
bar grips at all times.

I don't think this needs to become a critique of the MSF course; it
has enough other pressures trying to tear it apart already. I do think
the MSF is a good thing, in general.

I suspect the reason you can't get dirt-bikers to use 4 fingers on the
front brake is because they know how to stop the bike perfectly well
with 2 fingers...

 

??? I do that every time I ride.

(note: steering is not equal to turning; steering is controlling the
direction of the bike) Like I said, I don't want this to turn into a
critique of the MSF BRC. I think the MSF is a good thing, in general,
if you don't mind me repeating myself.

Good control, that's what's important.

And perhaps that they have little experience with how well street
tires adhere to pavement. We can all afford to learn something new
each day. My best wishes to your efforts to help riders ride safely
and well.

 

I don't want this to turn into a critique of the MSF class but I took both
the dumb-ass California DMV lollipop course (and failed twice on my Honda
CBR1000RR) and the MSF basic-rider class (just to get my license).

To give you an idea of how ridiculous the MSF basic rider class is, all 24
students in the class passed even though more than half couldn't even do
the loops inside the u-turn box! Ha. What a joke.

What amazed me was that the DMV test allowed not an inch over the line
whereas the MSF class allows you to miss by a car length and still pass.

What a joke they BOTH are!

If you're a California rider, my advice is find a friend who rides and
trust them and nobody else! Don't even bother to take the ridiculous
California DMV keyhole test. Take the MSF basic rider class but don't take
it seriously. Just do what you're told and shut up and they'll give you the
little card that gets you the license if you just play up to their egos.

It's a sad state of affairs in California that this is the God's honest
truth.

 

....

THAT is the load of crap! Braking and "brake hard" are different
things. 99.999% of my braking is not hard -- that is why you're
supposed to be looking ahead, so you will not have to brake hard. If
you are no where near the edge of performance it is perfectly
acceptable to brake in turns, turn while braking, shift gears,
whatever. If you are braking you likely will be downshifting as well,
and that requires a blip of the throttle for smoothness.

 

You mean like the "friend who rides" who told me to never, ever touch
the front brake lest I die instantly?

In an ideal world everyone would have had hundreds of hours of track
time, practicing at high and low speeds, on pavement and dirt,
drilling on emergency procedures, and so on before he ventured onto a
public road. In the real world if you tried to do that nobody would
ride because the training would cost more than the bike.

You seem to be expecting more than can be reasonably delivered in the
time available in the MSF course.

 

Ok, have it your way.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Yeah, them out of control dirt bike riders. What CAN one do with them?


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

Lots of replies to both of your questions. I just wanted to chime in and
advise you to take the MSF course. Basically what it does is give you some
familiarity with riding the bike while in safe controlled situation. You'll
practice things like stopping quickly, avoiding unexpected obstacles, and
you'll learn techniques that will make you a better, safer rider more
quickly than you might on your own.

When I started riding there was no MSF. I remember the day I picked up my
first bike. The sum total of my experience and training had been scanning
the motorcycle test booklet at the DMV, then completing the 15-question
written test before being handed a learner's license. Basically they said
"go figure it out". I recall sitting astride this 500cc beast and
marvelling that they'd let someone as blatantly unqualified as myself
operate such a rocketship amongst other drivers.

Would you give the keys to your car to your 15-year-old child and tell them
"go figure it out"?

Would you consider operating a crane or other piece of heavy equipment
without some rudimentary instruction?

Would you hook up your own electrical service from the transformer on the
pole?

A mistake on a motorcycle is always painful, often debilitating, and
sometimes fatal. Stack the odds in your favor. Take the course.

Dave S.

 

Do you actually RIDE a motorcycle?

I

Oh yeah, every fucking day of the week.

And if you still

All but impossible my arse.

We're not all the same y'know.

Let me just clean up. I just hurled all over the desk.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

But they can't stop properly. Useless buggers.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

No, but I spent a lot of my life designing, writing, implementing AND
instructing instructors on driving courses for a variety of mechanical
monsters. Roll on-Roll off tractors, fork lift trucks, HGV's etc.


If not, would it surprise you to

It may surprise you to find out that I made two such films more the
Mechanical Handling Institute.


It helps to visually reinforce what we

Amazing isn't it, but it's still not a substitute for an instructor. It's
what's actually called a "Visual Aid" nothing more.

And several of these "Training-aids" talk about

Well they wouldn't show how to load bales of fucking hay on farm tractor
trailers would they?

Time? Not all MSF courses are open when you wnat them to be, so it's ewither
do some off street learning or do **** all.

We tell the

That's pretty much what ALL courses provide. The basics and no more, so
you're not unique.

What, like not letting the clutch out too quickly. Get real David, people
have been jumping onto bikes since Adam was a lad and actually managing to
ride them. The big problem these days is the Nanny State mindset. No-one has
the ability to do ANYTHNG unless they've been taught by a teacher, but tell
me, who taught the teacher and who taught the teachers teacher? Go back and
you WILL find the one that had zero instruction from a "qualified" examiner.
And seeing as the MSF isn't anything but a money generator and a way of
avoiding a REAL test, it doesn't actually mean anything. If you had a test
at the end of your course which the rider MUST pass before he/she was
allowed to ride, then it'd have at least SOME weight behind it, but the MSF
is used to avoid a test.

Granted some people will "take something away from the course", but their
main reason for doing the course is so they don't have to sit the DMV test.

Who taught YOUR teacher?


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

I would.

 

True.....but at the moment it's just riding around bulldozed trails
getting used to the controls, rather than any serious off road riding
(hills, swamps, creek crossings etc.)

When it comes to licence time (car & bike), they can get a learners
permit and just ride around for 6 months before getting their restricted
licence......or attend a defensive riding course and waive the 6 month
waiting period. They will be attending both the bike & car defensive
driving courses even though they are similar.....a double dose might
help it all sink in better.

They have already learnt the 'do as I say, not do as I do' rule....I'm
no role model.

 

I've ridden motorcycles of one sort or another since I was about 10 years
old. When I moved to Washington State and applied for my license there, I
didn't have a bike, and it didn't occur to me to make sure the motorcycle
endorsement transferred. So, I had to take their test. It is a bullshit
piece of work. Low speed parking lot maneuvers... figure 8's and the like.
I'm sorry but I rarely, NO, I NEVER, find myself in a situation in traffic
which would require or utilize the skills they test for. One would think
that the fact that I've continuously insured a motorcycle for 20 or more
years and am still alive might make one eligible to waive the test but no...

Anyways, I failed that goddamn test twice. I guess I was too proud to
practice their idiotic maneuevers. So I spent a couple of evenings in a
parking lot practicing and proceeded to pass the test.

I've also taken the MSF course (it was a requirement for me to keep my
license at one point but that's a different story) and have nothing but good
things to say about it. Although I've managed to keep myself alive on a
motorcycle over multiple decades, I actually learned some stuff that made me
a better rider... there's some theory stuff that you'd just never guess but
which helps you ride better, safer, even faster. For a completely
inexperienced rider it is a must unless you've got someone who is
technically perfect with infinite patience and time to teach you on their
remote airstrip away from traffic.

That's not right. This I am sure varies by instructor, there are good ones
and crappy ones. It serves no purpose to either the organization or the
student to pass folks who are not proficient. it's also illegal - the CA
DMV requires proficiency and simply are outsourcing the testing portion to
MSF.

Wouldn't it be more productive to approach the course as if you _MIGHT_ just
learn something? You will be given instructional materials and you will be
able to practice... if you decide to be a slack-ass and not bother to use
this time to your advantage it's your loss.

Dave S.

 

Where did you take this course? The MSF class I took was different from
the one you describe.

Well, that's your honest truth, anyway.

 

Good! I'll have you come do mine, 'cause I'm scared to death of it!




--
Heaven is where the police are British, the chefs Italian, the mechanics
German, the lovers French and it is all organized by the Swiss.

Hell is where the police are German, the chefs British, the mechanics
French, the lovers Swiss and it is all organized by Italians.

http://new.photos.yahoo.com/paul1cart/albums/

 

No, I'm saying people take the MSF course because it's all but guaranteed
they'll walk/ride away with a license.

I'm intrigued by the statement "must pass". How many people actually fail
the course? And be honest, checking is pretty simple.

A bit like most people over the age of 45 then. Odd that you're still here
dont y'think?


Both of us have

I did my training just like you and I've got no scars and I've never broken
a bone. (well not one of my own anyway)

Scars add character they say, but I'm not convinced.

I use them to remind myself why I am an MSF

Don't we all have those? It's all part of life's rich tapestry.

Well it doesn't sound corny at all, but what DOES sound corny is making
someone's comment that a little out of the way "getting to grips with a
bikes controls" session with a fellow motorcyclist sound like a certain
death sentence, or a ticket to ride with every known bad habit (gained in
acouple of afternoons) tattoo'd in the mind of the new rider. It's all about
degrees.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

It'd be rude not to.


--
Beav

VN 750
Zed 1000
OMF# 19

 

heh

 

That part was convenient, but in the absence of friends who could teach
me the less obvious things about riding, the MSF class taught me a lot
of good stuff. I did appreciate the bit about How To Get On A
Motorcycle, a routine I have followed attentively and thus only very
rarely dropped my bike. }: )

One woman in my class was asked to leave. She wanted to take the class
before riding. Her husband found out about it, made her get on his big
hawg, and she, nervous and small, dropped it onto the shiny parts. The
next day in class she was so nervous about dropping her bike that she
did. (That's similar to why they send friends and spouses away during
the class. It makes some people nervous. When our roommate went, we left
him there and picked him up later.)

*Most*. I started riding when I was 36.

You forgot to write, "So nyah!"

I think you're exaggerating what was said. Given that, if we put it
through the Beav filter, it comes out quite rational: "Checking someone
out on a bike is not likely to cause any great pedagogical harm to them,
but teaching someone without a formal lesson plan could result in
leaving out important bits of information."