Middle East Oil Dependency and Peace and Riding...

know!

I like them both...how about one of each? Support the Japanese
manufacturers, they need more market share.....

 

Of course it isn't. But its a good theory, better than what the peak oilers
bray about.

why would we care about all of that once the oil is gone. Supply Israel with
the weapons, they'll keep the local Arab population in check, hell, their
good at it, and it won't cost us anything except giving them a 5% discount
on lots of M1A1's....

 

You can get into whatever kind of discussion you wish. Blowing a
bunch of technical smoke up every ones ass will not change the facts
the Alberta tar sands are recognized as proven oil reserves. Your
very own Government have made the statement. The USGS confirms it.
Google the question and you will quickly find a dozen professional
links that support the statement.

Not to waste a whole bunch of bandwidth on your refusal to accept the
obvious I will provide one such quote.

begin quote
By Campion Walsh
Dow Jones Newswires
Petroleumworld.com
5-6-3

The U.S. government said Thursday Canada holds the world's
second-largest oil reserves, taking into account Alberta oil sands
previously considered too expensive to develop.

The Energy Information Administration, the statistical wing of the
U.S. Department of Energy, has included recent private sector
estimates that an additional 175 billion barrels of oil could be
recovered from resources known to exist in Western Canada since the
19th Century.
end quote

So spare me your self proclaimed status as the only one who knows what
the **** a proven reserve is. Despite all of the experts in the field
who might have an agenda to manipulate the definition of a proven
reserve, 95,000 jobs and 24 billion dollars of real money producing
actual oil is not a figment of some ones imagination and belies your
lame attempt to circumvent the truth in a futile attempt to bail you
out of a losing position.

Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

 

Until you and your countrymen decide to curb your appetite for fuel
the prospect of a $25.00 barrel of oil is very slim. I'll take the
over on that bet every day.

Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

 

Once again I disagree 15%-25% is well below the 35%-60% usually seen
in the oil industry.

There is no doubt Iraq has potential to be one of the worlds largest
producers, if the country can ever be controlled, and that is far from
a sure thing.

Don't get all wrapped up in cost of production. Look more to
profitability. The tar sands can be profitable with $21.00 per barrel
oil. Yes conventional oil in a controlled Iraq will be cheaper to
recover but that does not mean all of the drilling or recovery dollars
will flock to Iraq. The return on invested capital will be great in
Iraq but it is still damn good in Canada. Factor in the added risk
investing in such an unstable environment and Canada looks even
better.

Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

 

The SEC doesn't consider reserve definitions "technical smoke".

And you wanting the tar sands to be some kind of savior when Saudi Arabia
alone can get them reclassified as proven UNECONOMIC reserves in 6 months,
and stop production of them within the year, means the Americans aren't the
only ones relying on the largess of others to keep our economy from
cratering.

Of course. And the statement I made above is as completely reasonable.
$20/BBL puts them into a holding mode, back to $10/BBL and you are out of
business and they aren't reserves anymore. Just that easy....

I know more about them than you anyway.

Please...what losing position? You don't know a reserve definition or its
manipulation by geologists or engineers from a hole in your head, and
getting into a debate on marginal production, or the cost of incremental
production not tallied in official reserve counts is so far above your head
it isn't worth providing the rope to allow you to hang yourself with it.

 

We shall see. In the meantime, enjoy those 95,000 jobs and keep your fingers
crossed....

 

I also hear that some reservoirs in southern Iraq wells have been so

"Usually seen in the oil industry"? How many "usuallys" have you ever
worked? I've worked right in your neck of the woods from Weyburn to Lesser
Slave lake, the Gulf Coast on shore and off, the Appalachia Basin, and have
available to me well level information spanning the entire onshore US, and
unless you are talking about giants and supergiants ( most of which aren't
in this country) , you don't see much above 30% recovery factor without
extraordinary efforts, cool technical twists or loads of money....you want
to provide a link which contradicts this particular experience? Or would you
prefer to mention that someone who doesn't know a proven reserve or its
definition from a hole in his head and therefore hasn't actually ever even
DONE one before knows much more about industry wide recovery factors?

Its controlled enough for a few million barrels a day already.....good
enough for me....but its not like we've heard the last from Siberia, you
can't trust Saudi numbers high or low, and when in doubt, there is always
mining like the Albertans are doing....wells on 20 foot centers can run that
recovery factor to the moon.

Which means they can be shut down at $15. Your memory so short you don't
recall what Saudi Arabia did in 86 just to convince the other OPEC members
what they could do to them if they didn't get along and go along? That kind
of hardball puts the tar sands straight into the toilet....presto...so much
for your reserves. All you've got at that point is oily dirt....have
fun.....

Sure Canada looks good, no guns, no insurgents, a subsidiary of USA Inc.
already, but if you are losing $5/BBL for your product, exactly how long can
your government AFFORD to subsidize the industry?

 

Factor in the added risk

Don how much of your personally income have you invested in tar sands??? if
the answer is zero it might be that Canada's 174,000 million barrels tar
sands may help world supply but they are listed as unconventional sources
and extracting them will be punishing on the environment and costly...

Larry L
94 RC45 #2
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
Yank and bank your brains loose...
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/
http://www.fox302.com/index.pl?s=vg&user=netters2

 

No it's not... the amount of heat Hank generates with very little light is
on par with a nuclear reactor... (warning in case of melt down cover
President Bush's portrait )

Larry L
94 RC45 #2
Have a wheelie NICE day...
Lean & Mean it in every corner of your life...
If it wasn't for us the fast lane would rust...
V4'S are music to the seat of my pants...
1952 De Havilland Chipmunk...
Yank and bank your brains loose...
http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/-xlax-/
http://home.comcast.net/~netters2/
http://www.fox302.com/index.pl?s=vg&user=netters2

 

Not true Larry! Strip mining half of Alberta is apparently a perfectly
acceptable alternative to pumping oil out of the ground in Alaska or Saudi
Arabia the old fashioned way....if Calgary gets his way....

I wonder why the tree huggers aren't berserk up there to stop them from
developing these things anyway? Down here, you want to use a 5 acre drill
pad and every fruit loop in the universe shows up and claims there is some
endangered specie living there....how is it the Canadians have their tree
huggers so well tamed?

 

If the Dow hits 30,000 by the end of the year.... maybe.

-- Michael

 

According to people who study such things, anyway.

Militarily it is. Economically, it used to be.

No. Right now, we're investing our serious money and resources
in weapons and illegal, immoral wars. $400 billion annually on
weapons, and another $200 billion on bu$h's insane terror campaign
in Iraq. Compare those numbers to our investment in renewable
energy.

Well, at least you're not one of those kooks who denies that
bu$h's illegal and immoral invasion of Iraq is motivated by
oil. That's almost insanely stupid.
Oil reserves are limited, and compared to what's needed
to sustain the world's energy needs at the current growth
rate, little remains. Denial of that indisputable fact is
crap.

I'm not familiar with your concept of international law,
but it sounds silly, so no, I don't subscribe to it.
The U.N. was formed after WW2 to keep rogue nations headed
by power drunk extremists like Hitler or bu$h in check.
Some people have have no problem with senseless mass murder,
death, destruction, terrorism, and unspeakable human suffering
such as that taking place in Iraq. Most informed, moral people
work to defeat that dark side of humanity. That's the purpose
of international law.

Please tell us that you realize bu$h is a right wing
leaning liar so we know you're not completely out of
touch with reality.


--

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and I really
don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
-- George W. Bush, March 13, 2002


Donald Rumsfeld: "We know where they are," about these weapons.
"They are in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad." March 30, 2003.

George W. Bush: "We have sources that tell us that Saddam
Hussein recently authorized Iraqi field commanders to use chemical
weapons." February 8, 2003.

George W. Bush: "Intelligence gathered by this and other governments
leaves no doubt that the Iraq regime continues to possess and conceal
some of the most lethal weapons ever devised." March 17, 2003.


"I think this is the worst government the US has ever
had in its more than 200 years of history. It has
engaged in extraordinarily irresponsible policies not
only in foreign policy and economics but also in social
and environmental policy.....This is not normal government
policy. Now is the time for people to engage in civil
disobedience. I think it's time to protest - as much as
possible....What we have here is a form of looting."
- George A. Akerlof, 2001 Nobel prize laureate economist

"One of the things we don't want to do is destroy the
infrastructure in Iraq because in a few days we're going
to own that country," - Tom Brokaw

http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/


"Personally, I don't think all the Iraqis on earth are
worth even a single American life." - Tim Kreitz

 

Haven't you been following the situation in Iraq? So far,
it looks like a very bad theory. Most predictions of the
right wing war mongers have been proven wrong, and most of
their simple minded claims have been proven to be lies. In
terms of money and lives wasted, we would have been much better
off investing those hundreds of billions of dollars in renewable
energy and efficiency. Instead of killing people and destroying
shit, we could be creating jobs in a productive new industry
and cleaning up our atmosphere.

Not sure who your "we" is, but all moral, thinking people
care about such things. We don't dehumanize other people and
contribute to their suffering only because they live far away
or have a different skin color or religion than us.

Won't cost us anything? U.S. taxpayers are funding Israel's war
crimes, U.N. violations, torture, terror attacks, land theft,
and brutal military occupation with multi-billion dollar welfare
handouts. Israel is the top recipient of foreign aid handouts.
It could not survive without multi-billion dollar welfare checks
from working U.S. tax payers.


--

"I don't know where bin Laden is. I have no idea and I really
don't care. It's not that important. It's not our priority."
-- George W. Bush, March 13, 2002


"I think this is the worst government the US has ever
had in its more than 200 years of history. It has
engaged in extraordinarily irresponsible policies not
only in foreign policy and economics but also in social
and environmental policy.....This is not normal government
policy. Now is the time for people to engage in civil
disobedience. I think it's time to protest - as much as
possible....What we have here is a form of looting."
- George A. Akerlof, 2001 Nobel prize laureate economist


http://www.commondreams.org/
http://www.truthout.org/
http://counterpunch.org/
http://responsiblewealth.org/

 

yes...and contradicted by more people who study such things better....

last I looked we were still the 800 pound gorilla on the block....did our
economy shrink recently and I missed it?

why? You said we should be investing serious money, you didn't say we should
chuck the military budget and dump it into renewable energy research....I
pointed out correctly that we are investing serious money and you started
waffling....not even the courage of your convictions eh?

It wasn't motivated by oil, any more than the first gulf war was motivated
by oil. It was motivated by something even sillier....and it isn't illegal
because he didn't get arrested for doing it, and it isn't immoral because we
are allowed to blow up who we want because the rest of the world has
adbdicated its share to us.....too bad, so sad....

Well, if you think a huundred years at current demand is a "little",
fine....just don't make the mistake the peak oilers do and create your own
numbers for whats left to justify the peak oiler position.

Good...not that it matters, because its reality, and while wanting it to be
something else is fine, we just had an election which says that invasion and
conquering is fine....the rest of the world can go back to eating popcorn
and hoping we don't do it to them because they are too lazy to clean up
their act.

You talking about before or after we invaded?

Too bad the only international law with teeth is what the US wants...good
for us...bad for the "head in the sand" hypocrites who think using WMD's on
your own people is good old fashion fun and shouldn't be stopped by
international law.

I know exactly who george is....its whats so wonderful about him. But I was
given a choice between a left leaning liar and right leaning liar (
politicians being defined as liars across the board, as a matter of
principle ), I'll take the right leaning liar every time....until he starts
chasing interns anyway...then I'll switch the other way....

 

That's not the only way to become energy independent.

Really? Most? Lets check off a few...Saddam is bad...lets get him. Done.
Iraq oil should get back into the oil market because everyone needs it, and
without saddams control. Done. Can't find any WMD's? Oh well....No 1 and 2
are good enough.

Who cares why they went in? We can, we wanted to, we did, the rest of the
world whines like little babies because they can't do what we do.....its
just the typical crap you get from other people who are cranky because they
refuse to invest in a more stable and even handed world under the rule of
benevolent americans.

we're good at killing people and blowing stuff up, have been for quite some
time.Cleaning up the atmosphere? Show me a developing country which is
willing to give up using coal and go back to slash and burning its forests
and giving up hope of making into the industrial age....more of those we
need...

sure we do...under the democrats anyway. Saddam was raping and torturing and
killing and here we sat...doing nothing because of people who think war is
NEVER a suitable alternative....no one cared about all those people when
saddam was doing terrible things to them, now all of a sudden someone gives
a shit?

Shoulda stood up and demanded a war some time ago then instead of wishy
washing your way through whats moral and what isn't.

oh now this should be GOOD. No mention of what the Palestinians do eh, but
blame the Israeli's? Good one! At least now I understand why all the moral
rectitude is coming from...and selectively applied.

good....better them fighting the arabs all the time then us, I always say.

better we give the money to saddam eh?

 

Reading comprehension obviously isn't your strong suit. I never said
the tar sands were some sort of saviour. I did say they are a
wonderful profit center for big oil and have provided a thriving debt
free economy for all Albertans.

Well that ain't happening & ain't gonna happen because Saudi Arabia
also likes $40.00 per barrel oil and even if the could and did ramp up
production, limited refinement capacity would buffer a fall in prices.

If your best argument against my contention is that Saudi Arabia is
going to divorce themselves from OPEC ramp up production, invest
billions in refining facilities, all to make less money from their
limited natural resource I think this conversation is done.

Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

 

If you could see the development going on in this Province, investment
in all segments of the economy, low unemployment rates,
reasearch/investment/construction of alternate energy sources & more
you would understand why this is a great place to live and why people
are flocking here from all points in North America.

Just so folks don't get the impression Alberta is greedy, we do share
this wealth with other Provinces in Canada through billions of dollars
in transfer payments.

Now if only we could do something about the snow and the cold?

Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

 

I don't have to be a carpenter to build a house, I don't have to be a
lawyer to have a legal agreement drawn up, I don't have to be a C.A.
to have my taxes prepared and I don't have to work in the oil industry
to read professional reports and express an opinion.

Your ability to disagree does not invalidate my original statement.

Despite the fact we do disagree on many points this has been a good
discussion and I have looked up a few points on the web.

I have always said to copy from one source is theft, to copy from two
sources is plagiarism and to copy from three sources is called
research. I guess I have done some research to support the points
raised in this thread.

Here is a link to an interesting article I found on Iraq. Please note
I am characterizing it as interesting not the final word on accuracy.
http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/cabs/iraq.html

Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm

 

That number would be very difficult to identify, but I suspect it
would be substantial (in relation to my modest income) through a
variety of mutual funds, support by the Government through the tax
base, pension funds etc.

All good points Larry but the same argument can be made for
conventional oil. Oil by itself is punishing on the environment.

As you have read I do not support Kyoto, not because I am for the
production of greenhouse gases, but because Kyoto does nothing to stem
the flow of greenhouse gases. I suspect once all the flowery language
is distilled from the reasons why your Government is not a signatory
to the accord that would be the reason why.


Don Binns
84 - Virago 1000

When an ill wind blows you can either build a hut or hoist a sail.

http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/reeky.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/banff.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/kananaskis.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/walkercalgary.htm
http://www3.telus.net/public/dbinns/calgarybrowning.htm