Lucas K2F magneto coil rewind

Discussion in 'Classic Motorbikes' started by N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008.

  1. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    A pensioner has asked me about possiblity of rewinding some of these magneto
    coils.
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/K2F.jpg
    laying on cm/mm graph paper.
    Orangey section is the laquered coil.
    C area is the contact patch (supplying 2 HT leads in turn) moulded into the
    surrounding paxolin? insulation, continued out to the boss marked P, but
    otherwise looking like the tarnished brass sections in colour , marked B.
    The curve above the C is the shape of one end of this contact section, not a
    trick of the light.
    A is aluminium housing for the contact breaker
    First comment is he has 5 of these , all not working at all or properly, so
    probably not good design anyway, as none were abused in use.
    He has one good magneto , he moves around 3 bikes. He can get some or all
    nonworkers commercially reconditioned , at a price each. But of course he
    would like all 5 rewound and he knows, like me , that having researched and
    set-up for one then the following 4 rewinds are much easier. I use a
    coil-winder machine but little experience of these sorts of coils.
    No electrical data found on the net for these.
    As received by me, the secondary measured 22K ohm, now reads 6.3K , at this
    stage, presumably shorted turns rather than a break for this one.
    He has some sort of technical data for these , when he can find it, but
    first thing is how to (after desolding) slide the laquered-in coil out of
    the central section between the 2 steel pole pieces marked S, and because of
    the boss marked P that holds the HT wire lead out, coil would have to be
    removed from the other open section, underneath in pic. Anyone know the
    number of turns, wire gauge to save having to count off ? and details of
    interlayer insulation (if any). How is the HT coil output removed from the
    boss P or whereabouts is the join to a feedthrough under the output laquer?
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #1
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  2. You don't say what make it is, nor which bike(s) it fits.
    A quick educated guess, and I found a very similar device here:
    http://www.srm-engineering.com/electrical1 -- Lucas K2F. The company
    claims to have a complete reconditioning service.
    There's an exploded view here:
    http://members.aol.com/Pinman1/blowup.htm
    http://members.aol.com/pinman1/magnetos.htm -- sounds like disassembling
    the armature is best left to someone experienced.

    Workshop manual here:
    http://www.bolsover.com/lucas/sectionL5partA.pdf

    One particular item was: primary 20 g 4x45T; secondary 40 g ~30x250T
    by the looks of it:
    http://www.britbike.com/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/11/t/002638/p/1.html

    --
    Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
    Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
    GSX600F, RG250WD "You Porsche. Me pass!" DoD #484 JKLO#003, 005
    WP7# 3000 LC Unit #2368 (tinlc) UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16 UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
    KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
     
    Dr Ivan D. Reid, Apr 24, 2008
    #2
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  3. [Idiot; Read the Subject line]
    http://www.srm-engineering.com/electrical1. The company claims to have a
    complete reconditioning service.
    There's an exploded view here:
    http://members.aol.com/Pinman1/blowup.htm
    http://members.aol.com/pinman1/magnetos.htm -- sounds like disassembling
    the armature is best left to someone experienced.

    Workshop manual here:
    http://www.bolsover.com/lucas/sectionL5partA.pdf

    One particular item was: primary 20 g 4x45T; secondary 40 g ~30x250T
    by the looks of it:
    http://www.britbike.com/ubb/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?/ubb/get_topic/f/11/t/002638/p/1.html

    --
    Ivan Reid, School of Engineering & Design, _____________ CMS Collaboration,
    Brunel University. Ivan.Reid@[brunel.ac.uk|cern.ch] Room 40-1-B12, CERN
    GSX600F, RG250WD "You Porsche. Me pass!" DoD #484 JKLO#003, 005
    WP7# 3000 LC Unit #2368 (tinlc) UKMC#00009 BOTAFOT#16 UKRMMA#7 (Hon)
    KotPT -- "for stupidity above and beyond the call of duty".
     
    Dr Ivan D. Reid, Apr 24, 2008
    #3
  4. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Ta for that, i'd not found that pdf
    I suspect the owner has a paper version of that pdf

    Perhaps 40 awg in that thread , I would expect from previously winding
    outboard engine magnetos that it was more like 45 swg gauge.
    Every time I touch this armature the secondary ohms varies, 45K and 27K on
    the last 2 occasions, so at least cannot make matters worse.
    I wonder if you have to remove the pulley-like paxolin drum numbered 27 on
    that pinman pic, before releasing the internal HT leadout, to then remove
    the coil.
    I can now see how to remove the coil assembly but not how that leadout is
    connected into the paxolin drum. I can see me using glass tape being used
    instead of cloth for outer protection, for anti-hygroscopic reasons.
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #4
  5. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    u.r.s added

    From the Lucas pdf , under fig 6
    http://www.bolsover.com/lucas/sectionL5partA.pdf
    "Fit the new slip ring moulding on the shaft, taking care that the wire
    enters the hole in the slip ring boss , and that it goes fully home without
    bending. Seal the wire into the bosss with varnish"

    Sounds a bit odd and don't know what it means yet, pushfit and varnish?.

    The contact breaker housing comes off by slackening the central holding bolt
    a bit and lightly tapping the bolt head to release a keyed bushing.

    It looks as though a roll pin passes through both steel cheeks and through
    the coil bobbin to hold the coil in place. I've not managed to shift that
    with my usual use of bits of pop-rivet steel pin, so far. One hole is
    slightly larger than the other and I'm assuming its a matter of knocking the
    pin through the small hole of about 2.2mm diameter to release through the
    larger 2.5mm hole.
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #5
  6. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    u.r.s added

    From the Lucas pdf , under fig 6
    http://www.bolsover.com/lucas/sectionL5partA.pdf
    "Fit the new slip ring moulding on the shaft, taking care that the wire
    enters the hole in the slip ring boss , and that it goes fully home without
    bending. Seal the wire into the bosss with varnish"

    Sounds a bit odd and don't know what it means yet, pushfit and varnish?.

    The contact breaker housing comes off by slackening the central holding bolt
    a bit and lightly tapping the bolt head to release a keyed bushing.

    It looks as though a roll pin passes through both steel cheeks and through
    the coil bobbin to hold the coil in place. I've not managed to shift that
    with my usual use of bits of pop-rivet steel pin, so far. One hole is
    slightly larger than the other and I'm assuming its a matter of knocking the
    pin through the small hole of about 2.2mm diameter to release through the
    larger 2.5mm hole.
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #6
  7. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    u.r.s added

    From the Lucas pdf , under fig 6
    http://www.bolsover.com/lucas/sectionL5partA.pdf
    "Fit the new slip ring moulding on the shaft, taking care that the wire
    enters the hole in the slip ring boss , and that it goes fully home without
    bending. Seal the wire into the bosss with varnish"

    Sounds a bit odd and don't know what it means yet, pushfit and varnish?.

    The contact breaker housing comes off by slackening the central holding bolt
    a bit and lightly tapping the bolt head to release a keyed bushing.

    It looks as though a roll pin passes through both steel cheeks and through
    the coil bobbin to hold the coil in place. I've not managed to shift that
    with my usual use of bits of pop-rivet steel pin, so far. One hole is
    slightly larger than the other and I'm assuming its a matter of knocking the
    pin through the small hole of about 2.2mm diameter to release through the
    larger 2.5mm hole.
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #7
  8. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    u.r.s added

    From the Lucas pdf , under fig 6
    http://www.bolsover.com/lucas/sectionL5partA.pdf
    "Fit the new slip ring moulding on the shaft, taking care that the wire
    enters the hole in the slip ring boss , and that it goes fully home without
    bending. Seal the wire into the bosss with varnish"

    Sounds a bit odd and don't know what it means yet, pushfit and varnish?.

    The contact breaker housing comes off by slackening the central holding bolt
    a bit and lightly tapping the bolt head to release a keyed bushing.

    It looks as though a roll pin passes through both steel cheeks and through
    the coil bobbin to hold the coil in place. I've not managed to shift that
    with my usual use of bits of pop-rivet steel pin, so far. One hole is
    slightly larger than the other and I'm assuming its a matter of knocking the
    pin through the small hole of about 2.2mm diameter to release through the
    larger 2.5mm hole.
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #8
  9. N_Cook

    bobharvey Guest

    <Sucks teeth>
    "There's yer problem right away, guv. You should be measuring yer
    hole in 64ths of an inch for a Lucas"
    </sucks teeth>
     
    bobharvey, Apr 24, 2008
    #9
  10. ®óñ© © ²°¹°-°², Apr 24, 2008
    #10
  11. I hope you are either doing this as a HUGE favor for the pensioner, or
    he/she is rich enough to pay you adequately for your time. No matter
    how you get it apart, it will be a large royal pain to rewind with
    that fine/small size wire and then reconnect the wire to the slip
    rings. Any idea why so many of these hae failed, it might tell you
    what not to do when rewinding.
     
    hr(bob) hofmann, Apr 24, 2008
    #11
  12. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    onhttp://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/

    I hope you are either doing this as a HUGE favor for the pensioner, or
    he/she is rich enough to pay you adequately for your time. No matter
    how you get it apart, it will be a large royal pain to rewind with
    that fine/small size wire and then reconnect the wire to the slip
    rings. Any idea why so many of these hae failed, it might tell you
    what not to do when rewinding.

    I was quite happy putting on about 14,000 turns of 45 swg wire onto boat
    outboard motor magneto coils, once the traverse rate, reducing
    endstop/reversal points etc was set up for my 1920s coilwinder , rusted and
    totally seized but now
    rescued back into working order after decades in someone's damp and leaking
    shed
     
    N_Cook, Apr 24, 2008
    #12
  13. N_Cook

    Mark Guest

    A friend of mine reconditions magnetos as a sideline/hobby.
    I will ask next time I see him if he would be willing to help you via email.
    I hope you already have
    Coil winding machine with turns counter
    Vacuum chamber


    -
     
    Mark, Apr 24, 2008
    #13
  14. Ah! Are you available for alternator rewinds?
     
    The Older Gentleman, Apr 25, 2008
    #14
  15. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    OK this magneto has been in an English shed for years, but "isolating"
    secondary and putting a Megger between HT coil and frame shows 5M ohm to
    start with
    , drifting up to 100M , no good with intended KV around.

    The capacitor, sorry, condenser measures 0.36uF which is presumably about
    right value, anyone know what value and type of capacitor to replace it with
    ?

    Still not managed to free the bobbin retainer roll pin yet though
     
    N_Cook, Apr 25, 2008
    #15
  16. N_Cook

    Guest Guest

    You didn't say: I assume from the pics that the wire is merely
    varnished, but is it cotton or silk covered too? if so, it may well be
    breakdown through damp.

    Put it in the oven at around 50deg C for a few hours (days?) and try
    again.


    Regards,

    Simonm.
     
    Guest, Apr 25, 2008
    #16
  17. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    Not rollpin , a matter of removing the ballrace and underlying steel rings
    and spacer from the brass section marked BR on
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/K2F_b.jpg
    requiring making up an extractor as standard pullers have no ledge to
    purchase on.
    The 2 long screws go the length of the steel pieces like an electric drill
    housing. Marked the orientation before removing the end cap. Yes the HT wire
    marked W just pushes into the boss of the paxolin pulley shown in the third
    pic. An excellent site for damp ingress , via capillary action, into the
    body of the coil (my excavations exploring how deep the cloth covering was).
    Green corrosion on the HT wire is more obvious in the original high
    resolution pic, evidencing dampness at the end of the HT sleeving.
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/K2F_c.jpg
    the capacitor is the square lump covered in greasy mess in the end cap
    http://home.graffiti.net/diverse:graffiti.net/K2F_d.jpg
    the paxolin pulley-like section that goes on the brass axis at W position.
     
    N_Cook, Apr 25, 2008
    #17
  18. N_Cook

    N_Cook Guest

    N_Cook, Apr 25, 2008
    #18
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