Listen up, you tx.moto wimps...

WHEW!!!!!!


So to those of you coming into this late (after Bill's little
crossposting venture to tx.moto) here's what was actually asked, by
David T. Ashley, on September 23:

*********************************************************************************************

First time rider, 2000 miles, all in past 60 days. Honda Shadow 600.

When I practice maximum braking, I lock the rear wheel up about 50% of
the
time, but never the front. If I start from 60 MPH or so, by the time
I make
it down to 15 MPH, I'm still increasing pressure on the front brake.
Overall my stops are probably about 85% as good as I could do in a
car.

Clearly, I need to be a bit more aggressive on the front (although
I'm
already fairly aggressive).

A colleague suggested that I take the bike out to a clear patch of
asphalt
and determine at about 35MPH exactly what it takes to lock up the
front
wheel and work from there. (A good suggestion, except I don't want to
dump
the bike.) His rationale is that by the time I lock up the front I'll
be
going far less than 35MPH.

Questions:

a)What is the best way to practice and refine maximum braking
technique so I
can get more involvement of the front wheel?

b)I have never locked up the front wheel, ever. If I do this, will I
be
quick enough releasing it to avoid dumping the bike?

c)Any other suggestions?

This is a safety issue to me. I've had some firm stops so far on the
road,
.... but for safety's sake I need to get better at it.

Thanks

**********************************************************************************************

I didn't actually respond directly to the original poster, but to a
guy named "Greg," (under the handle oasysco) who is another fairly
new rider and a regular contributor to rec.motorcycles. David's lines
have double greater than (> >) indicators, Greg's have single
indicators (>) and my comments are not prefixed:

**********************************************************************************************

If you lock up the rear wheel or the front wheel at the very end of
your stop, you are unlikely to fall over, unless your bike is very
heavy and you lose your balance. Locking the rear wheel at any
speed
while braking in a straight line is nothing to concern yourself with,
as long as it doesn't cause you to panic and stop braking entirely.

I often have my front tire lock and slide the last few feet of a
maximum braking exercise on my Harley Steet Glide, just as I almost
always have the rear wheel of my Ducati Monster in the air during
those last few feet. Neither has any significant effect on braking
distances. Both are easily managed with practice. Both are, in
fact, symptomatic of the achievement of maximum braking.

Please, we try not to refer to them as "panic stops." Maximum
braking
stops, or stopping in the shortest distance possible. And while
15-25 mph is a good starting speed for (well, actually, 25 mph is.
15
is too slow) practice, one should also practice from higher speeds as
well.

Actually, unless you are riding a modern 1-finger or 2-finger
sportbike, you *do* have to apply the front brake pretty damn hard to
slow the bike in the shortest possible distance.

You can recover from locked front brake by releasing the brake, by
easing off the brake, or by holding the motorcycle upright and in a
straight line with the front wheel locked until you stop. The first
is the easiest, the second is the most effective and requires
extensive practice and skill, and the third is the most difficult and
usually won't work unless you have already practically completed your
braking by the time it happens.

Or we are talking about stopping in the shortest distance using both
brakes to the point of impending lock-up, WITHOUT locking the brakes.

If you try that last suggestion, please make sure you are completely
off the brakes and your suspension has settled BEFORE you swerve!

I would suggest you find a large, flat, clean, smooth, paved parking
lot. Find one where you can easily accelerate up to 45mph and
equally easily come to a stop braking normally with plenty of room to
spare.

Set up a braking marker. Use a half a tennis ball or a mini-traffic
cone or a coke can. Ride to the marker, stabilizing your speed
PRIOR
to arriving at it. Begin braking at the marker. Brake firmly and
with increasing pressure on the front brake, while applying light,
steady pressure to the rear brake. Keep your head and eyes up, level
with the horizon. Don't look down at the ground in front of you. If
you lock the rear brake, leave it locked until you are stopped. Use
chalk or a pebble or a crack in the pavement or some sort of marker
for where the contact patch of your front tire stopped. Try again,
this time squeezing the front brake lever a little more firmly.
Increase the rate at which you go from initial squeeze to maximum
squeeze. You may hear your front tire chirping or howling or both,
due to extreme traction demand. Learn what this sounds and feels
like. Get used to it. Take breaks, Drink water, Relax. When you
brake 20 times or so with no more improvement in your stopping
distances, up your speed 5-10 mph and start ALL over again. Learn
hpw quickly you can take up the free play in your front brake lever.
Learn how quickly and how hard you can squeeze that lever without
locking the front wheel. Learn how your bike pitches forward on its
suspension when you brake hard, and what it feels like,and learn to
continue to brake even as you are holding yourself up against the
bars. If your rear brake locks up in the last 5-10 feet of your
braking, that's good - it means that the rear tire has been
contributing some braking force and shortening your braking distances
somewhat. Some people will tell you to ease off the rear brake in
that last 10-15 feet. If you're good enough to do that WITHOUT also
easing off on the increasing pressure you're applying to the front
brake, more power to you. I can't do that. If you find yourself
tensing up while practicing max braking, relax, and intentionally
work
on relaxing WHILE braking hard. You need this to be an EVERYDAY
skill
that does NOT freak you out when you need to deploy it.
When you're satisfied with your maximum braking in the parking lot,
look for SAFE, isolated places where you can practice during normal
riding. Making sure you can stop quickly approaching a traffic
light,
or a grade level interchange will reinforce that you need to be able
to do so at ANY time it might be necessary.

If you ride in the rain, you should also practice effective braking
in
the rain, under controlled circumtances.

Tim (MSF Instructor 1991-2004; race school instructor 2001-2004)

*******************************************************************************************


Now, there is a good reason there was no discussion about downshifting
in this exchange. First, the OP didn't indicate that he needed help
with his downshifting skills. Second, the OP asked about stopping in
the minimum distance, and downshifting will NOT aid in stopping in the
minimum distance. Third, the OP did not ask about normal braking,
which is when downshifting and letting out the clutch and using engine
braking all come into play. Fourth, the OP was talking about
practicing in a parking lot, where leaving yourself in second or third
gear at the end of a maximum braking exercise is in no way a danger to
yourself or others.

Finally, as far as the MSF qualifications go, during the 14 years that
I was an MSF instructor, I followed the curriculum. The curriculum
included both normal braking (including downshifting) and maximum
braking, which also included downshifting. When students had achieved
normal braking, with downshifting, we did not go back and revisit that
when we moved on to the potentially life saving skill of stopping the
motorcycle in the shortest distance.

The curriculum stressed that effective use of both brakes to the point
of impending lock-up in a maximum braking exercise was CRITICAL to
stopping in the shortest distance, and that remembering to downshift
(so that you would be in first gear at the end of the stop, NOT to
shorten your braking distance further than you could through effective
use of the brakes) was a DISTANT consideration after making sure that
you kept your head and eyes up while stopping, and didn't lock and
skid your tires while stopping.

That was backed up by the maximum braking TEST, where you picked up a
demerit point for every single foot that you stopped beyond the
standard for your measured speed, but you only got one point for
failing to downshift to first gear.

This has all been pointed out to Bill in the rec.motorcycles thread,
but he - of course - simply chooses to ignore it. He's not interested
in reason, he is only interested in flaming, and then claiming that is
what everyone else is doing to him.

Finally:

1. NO ONE ever described "downshifting a motorcycle to enhance a
smooth and efficient stop.. having "no value".. "

2. NO ONE ever claimed that "downshifting being without value when
stopping a motorcycle.."

3. NO ONE ever said that they "didn't use downshifting when they
ride."


Two days later, Bill responded to the OP by saying "I've noticed that
nothing has been said to address the benefits of using the
transmission of the motorcycle to enhance stopping the bike.."

To which Dic O'Leary responded "What more do you imagine the
transmission is going to do in an emergency stop given a functional
rear brake? "

Bill came back with " <chuckle> I don't "imagine" that it's going to
do anything.. The OP actually seemed to be interested in minimizing
braking distance.. Try it sometime.. the smoothest and most efficient
stops are made on a motorcycle when the rider has developed enough co-
ordination to drop gears in relation to the efforts of the engine,
while he's working both front and rear brakes to maintain control of
the bike.. Takes a lot of practice.. "

Here's my response to Bill, which has got him all worked up, calling
me a fat bastard, etc:

Dropping gears while maximum braking does not provide any additional
stopping power at all. Disregarding "smooth and efficient" stops,
the
shortest stopping distance (per the subject line) will be achieved by
squeezing in the clutch, keeping the clutch disengaged, using both
front and rear brakes to the point of impending lock-up WITHOUT
locking up the brakes, until you are completely stopped.

An experienced and practiced rider MAY choose to downshift WHILE
braking, but since the clutch is disengaged, NO engine braking will
take place (and indeed, no engine braking is available at all during
maximum braking; by definition, the tires are at the point of
impending lockup from brake application, and no additional braking
force from the engine or anywhere else can *add* additional braking
force without locking the rear tire), and the ONLY benefit - as
pointed out elsewhere - is that the rider will be in first (or some
other gear, lower than the one in which braking was started) when he/
she comes to a stop. This is good, since it is difficult to
downshift several gears while at a complete stop.

Also, it is impossible to benefit from engine braking when the rear
wheel is 10-12 inches off the pavement while maximum braking! ;-)

***************************************************************************************

I even closed with a nice little winking smiley-face! No flames, no
name-calling, just a simple clarification for the sake of the OP who
was, in fact, asking about stopping in the mimmum distance.

And that, folks, is what set the Sheriff off on his latest posting
extravaganza.

 

Well at least Andrew has posted videos of his actual rides on the
track. So we all know how fast he actually goes.

Andrew has full on credibility. He ain't no wannabe poser.

 

Whew.. sure glad you approve of that article.. what a relief.. That guy
that's practicing to stop his motorcycle, on a parking lot will sure benefit
greatly.. Hell .. if he gets that bike over 30 or so mph, the instructor
will
probably jerk his ass off the bike and ground him from the class.. LMAO..

Kinda showin' your ass on the topic, aren't you, Andrew.. <evil grin>
That's
kinda like you used to do when you and some of your buddies professed
to "Live to Flame and Flame to Live".. Back in those days, this BryanUT
dude wouldn't have even been posting on Reeky, unless you and your
buddies approved of him, first..

hmmm.. Haven't been following it, but there's a thread on Reeky, right now..
It's header is "Please".. Don't know where they came from or who they are,
but.. those guys know about a "flame war".. That thread is almost as long
as Henry's WTC demo threads.. and it's only been a couple of weeks..

Before you get too far along with all that stopping with the rear wheel in
the
air, you might want to check that thread and learn a little bit about "flame
wars".. You guys and me are rank amatuers .. No matter high you get that
rear wheel up.. Try that rear wheel in the air technique on a twistie moun-

 

Hey, I got a dictionary. And I'm gonna use it!

 

Heh, Bill, I'm talking 1/2 inch to maybe 2 inches not like a foot or
anything.
Good to hear from you too!


--

Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Kiddo

 

I'd disagree here and say I'm a wannabe, but not a poser.


--

Andrew
00 Daytona
00 Speed Triple
71 Kawi H1
05 Kiddo

 

Heh, heh. Maybe can the MSF idea and put your money towards a
computer course covering cut & paste.

Of course. Prior to this, I knew Tim's and Calgary's positions on
downshifting, 'cause I've been here awhile. In the case of Calgary,
I've even ridden with him. So there really isn't a controversy on
this point. It just started off as one thing and became a whole
other, so I figured I'd inject that explanation for the benefit of the
tx.moto crowd.

Yeah, it's a totally different kind of forum, for sure (you know I was
just ribbing you guys). From what I've seen, a lot more like RMH than
Reeky, actually.

I just had to exhibit a little pride in this forum. It's a lot of
things good and bad, but when you get people from all over the world
voicing (and vigorously defending) their ideas, it gives people
something to think about at times.

Not a problem. I can see you've taken my words in the way they were
intended. Just having a little fun, to get a rise out of your
buddies.

 

Suuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrre, you did, fat boy.

Suuuuuuuerrrrrrrrrrrre, they did, you poser wannabe!

Yeah, like YOU could tell, you usenet pussy!

 

Try it on a long wheel based cruiser in street or highway traffic and
with a rookie holding the bars.. Besides.. kinda like .. has been point-
ed out.. you didn't run to many technical details in the comments.. Sorta
like my little suggestion on the Minimum Braking Distance thread.. See..
I assumed (there's that word again) That the supposedly experienced
instructor that I was addressing would understand the importance of
the relationship between his engine and the transmission.. to maintain
control of that bike, in braking or just plain old learning to ride..

Take it careful, Andrew..

 

hehehe.. You sure have a problem getting a handle on the OP that
started all this shit, don't you ? Again.. slowly now, and let it sink in..
The OP was trying to learn to ride a motorcycle in a parking lot.. He
was practicing to stop that bike.. Not ride it around a race track or on
a drag strip.. Eventually, he'll get to the point of deciding which style
of motorcycling he prefers.. All you Reeky Wizards that have gone
into stunts and racing techniques, are way ahead of him and your-
selves.. You may impress each other with all that expertise advice
that you are throwing around, but, you'll get some poor rookie killed..

He's a fucking racer .. you incredibly stupid little wannabe.. If you
don't know the difference, you are dangerous to yourself and to
any poor Reeky rookie that tries to do what you advise him to do..

Like I've said before.. up until a few years ago, you wouldn't even
be posting on this newsgroup without getting your silly ass flamed
off of it.. until you'd met the approval of just a handful ..

 

hmmm.. We've got some history, Andrew.. Some of the guys I ride
with, tell me that I've mellowed somewhat since you and I last ex-
changed.. I don't think I'm much different than I've always been, but
that's just personal perception of oneself.. Respect given will warr-
ant respect in return.. How's that ?

 

I'm too damned lazy to use one.. WTF is a syco ??? whatever, anyway ?

If those sycophants are in a club or something.. I'd sure be leary about
joining it.. LOL

 

The MSF course taught to straighten up if you lock up the front wheel,
but to release if it if you did. For a rear brake lockup, they said
keep it locked up until you stop. Not heeding their warning could lead
to a highside in the former and a probable lowside in the latter.

I've never high-sided or low-sided as a result of a lockup, but I have
locked up - the rear only. And staying on the brake worked exactly as
it should without me losing control.

I took crap here for telling that original guy not to lock up his
front tire at all (implying - if he can help it). You're taking crap
for the same thing, only you offered add'l advice - use engine
braking.

For me, I use all means at my disposal when coming to a quick stop.

I work both brakes and am downshifting at the same time, but playing
the clutch big time to avoid locking up the rear by applying brakes
and engine braking. I can come to a stop in a short distance, which
could be hazardous because the car behind definitely can't. In those
cases, I usually keep on going and take my chances on a ticket for
running a light.

When coming to a regular stop, I often use engine braking, but flip my
brake lights for the guy behind me by tapping on the front brake lever
lightly.

Plus as they taught in the MSF - when riding in mountainous areas, use
engine braking (when going downhill).

Greg

 

OK, fine. But let's examine that notion just a little
further, at the risk of further physical abuse of a
moribund equine.

What exactly IS the "importance of engine braking?"

I would humbly submit that, from the perspective of
actually stopping/slowing the bike, and with respect to
modern bikes, brakes, and materials, the importance of
engine braking TO BRAKING is exactly zero. Zilch.
Nada. Zero.

Slowing the bike (or car, even) down via downshifting
and relying on the engine was certainly necessary in the days
when the braking system provided only marginal braking
force, and/or was subject to overheating/fading at the
slightest hint of extended use. This is, in general, no longer
the case; I think we've already agreed, after lengthly
discussion, that today's bikes pretty much without
exception are equipped with brakes that can get the job
done most quickly all on their own, and then turn right
around and do it again if need be.

This leaves two reasons for downshifting while slowing:
you keep the bike in the gear appropriate for the current
speed, such that you are set to accelerate if need be, and
you could be using "engine braking" to save wear and tear
on the braking system, since in an extended, planned
slow-down-and-stop scenario you might not even have to
touch the brakes until the very end. The first reason is
certainly a good one, and I suspect is actually the more
important one by quite a good margin. The latter - well, yeah,
I can see that you're saving the brakes, but at the expense
of the clutch. Probably not a big deal either way, but I
personally find it simple enough to replace brake pads when
needed.

So...just my $0.03. Inflation, ya know. Having dropped
my few pennies of gasoline into the fire, I will now sit back
and watch the flames continue....

Bob M.

 

Bullshit.. recall.. there were a couple of the wizards talking about
downshifting during a stop was of "no value" to stopping a bike.. lmao

Close enough.. I really don't see why anything there could be so
arguable..

ROTFLMAO.. Freewheel that sucker to a standstill with no benefit of
traction control.. Anyone following the actual thread won't find me
calling anybody anything until the shit hit the fan..

Absofuckingtively.. Disengaging the clutch and holding it.. will NOT
enable the transmission to affect the momentum of a motorcycle..

NO engine braking will

Are you fucking crazy ?

Which is typical performance for any rookie practicing in a parking lot..
Gawd damn.. boy.. you get more ridiculous the more you try to re-hab=
ilitate yourself.. If you are representative of any legitimate MSF instruct-
or, I'm a fucking astronaut.. LMAO.. I'll hand you this, though.. you play
usenet pretty good.. <evil grin> In spite of all your braggin on a news-
group and threatening to ride circles around somebody, and give them
riding lessons.. there has been zero demonstration from you of any
real life expertise..

hmmm.. BTW.. you fat bastard.. I haven't "cross posted" anything..
Not on this thread or other threads.. You can bet your fat ass, though
that you and Don Binns, another fat assed friend of yours.. have been
googling your fat asses off, to try and make yourselves a little less
foolish.. LOL.. Been there with you and bought the t-shirt, fat boy..

Like I said.. pretty close.. LOL.. Nice job of usenet playing, Morrow..
hmmm.. Why didn't you cut and paste the thread, instead of copying
it ? That's alright.. anyone interested can always log on and read the
entire exchanges.. without mine or your description of it.. Bottom line..
you and your cyber buddy/buddies completely overlooked any men-
tion of downshifting a motorcycle to bring it to a halt and even after
admitting you use the technique every time you ride.. you are still
trying to minimize it's importance in braking and controlling a motor-
cycle. The attempt to use an MSF Instructors certification to enhance
your credibility only makes your claims of having all that certification
more doubtful.. I'd venture furthur to speculate that the closest you've
been to any certification connected to MSF might be the certificate of
completion, you may have received after taking the course..

I'd go furthur and speculate that your reaction to my response was
"whoops.. forgot all about that.. dammit".. I certainly fail to see what
was so offensive about the suggestion that you might want to, at
least mention it. in all that advice to the OP.. I waited and waited for
one of you supposed experts to include it in your advice to a new
rider.. NONE of you Wizards, did.. and some of you.. mainly you
and Snowflake used my suggestion as a vehicle to escalate to a
flame war.. Noticeable.. in the entire thread, there was little input
from any of the seasoned riders on reeky .. Most of all the posts
exchanged were between you, me and Don Binns, with an occ-
asional contribution from one of your cyber buddies that you have
impressed, on usenet..

I'm more convinced now.. that you are certainly not what you claim
on usenet.. Don Binns threatened to come to Texas to pay me a
visit with a couple of his friends.. backed out on that little deal and
then later, after expressing much concern for my health and all.. he
challenged me to come to Calgary and get in a boxing ring with him..
WTF is shit like that all about.. If he didn't have balls enough to come
to Texas to an event that he'd planned, WTF is he going to do with
me in a goddamed boxing ring ?

Then, after all your usenet posturing and talking about riding circles
around someone and giving them riding lessons.. you supposedly
rode all over this place on a trip to California.. But, you never rode
close enough to my house, even though you and Binns both had
my verifiable address and pretty good directions.. for anyone here
to catch sight of you.. Not to this day and not even after I'd made
so many friendly exchanges with you and offered invitations to you
to ride with us on some damned good rides. Neither one of you two
fat fuckers are any kind of example of the kind of friends I'd choose
to associate with, and probably would not tolerate around me..

I believe that you and Binns are substantially usenet posers on a
motorcycle newsgroup and neither of you have the qualification to
offer any advice to anyone about riding a motorcycle in the real
world.. Outside of your usenet googling.. the only meaningful
advice that I've ever seen either of you pricks give anyone might
have had something with your helmet or what you wear that's in
fashion.. Stick to that kind of advice and you don't anything to
worry about from me.. Qualifying some of your bullshit advice
with commencing that advice with "heres what I picked up on
usenet" might be a good idea for you to practice.. remember..
"practice. practice.. practice".. I didn't notice you'd included those
repetitions in your account of the flame war.. LMAO.. you are a
joke, Morrow and a gutless on on top of that..

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.

 

Wheeeee.. Everybody pay attention now.. Morrow is going into his
cutesy mode.. LMAO.. Typical Morrow performance ..

 

That's advice the MSF gives to beginners, just to keep things simple,
Greg. As long as your back end hasn't swayed out too far, it's okay
to ease off on the back brake - just until it stops skidding.

Er... You shouldn't "lock up" your front tire, ever. Why would you
be getting crap over that? You must have a different definition of
what "lock up" means, or something...

To the contrary, as Henry noted yesterday, disengaging the clutch
*will* cause your rear tire to lock up, if you're already applying
near-threshold braking to it while the clutch is pulled in. It's
totally counter-productive to go from disengaging to engaging your
clutch in an effort to avoid locking up the rear.

Just think about it. The amount of force you need to apply to your
rear brake pedal is proportional to the amount of force that is trying
to keep that rear wheel rotating, right? So ask yourself under which
condition is less force trying to keep the rear wheel rotating?

Clutch in, or clutch out, the momentum that is trying to keep the bike
moving forward is the same, so there's no difference there.

But, when the clutch is disengaged, you're getting no help at all from
engine braking (i.e. it's like you're coasting in neutral), so that
means you have to apply *more* force to your rear brake in order to
reach the friction threshold of your tire, right?

Okay, so now introduce engaging (letting out) the clutch and adding
some engine braking effect to the equation. Remember that, under your
scenario, this is done while you have that same pressure applied to
the rear brake pedal. What's going to happen? The rear tire will
start skidding right away because you now have *too much* braking
pressure applied (your brake pedal force + the engine braking) -
you've exceeded the friction threshold of the tire.

If what you are aiming for is braking to the limits of what your tires
can take (just short of beginning to skid), it much better and
effective to just keep that clutch in the whole time while braking.
In situations where you don't have to brake to that extreme then, yes,
using engine-braking to assist in the stopping is great. The point to
keep in mind is the latter technique doesn't apply to the most extreme
case of braking.

<snip>

Good point. When I'm using engine braking to stop and there's cars
behind, I always give a tap or two to the rear brake to give them a
head's up. Goodness knows cagers need all the hints they can get!

 

Is it possible to do a stoppie on a Goldwing? How do you unhook that
link brakeing bullshit? Thats bullshit..I tried one of them damn
stoppies when I went to lunch and that fucking Goldwing just stopped
real fast. There were 3 hot chicks in a trans-am I was trying to show
off for.

Redshad

 

Reads like you are on the right track, Greg.. I've never taken an MSF
course.. I've come to realize lately that reflexes and reactions are not
quite what they were, so I'm considering looking into it.. Friend of mine
out west is working on getting me into one of their LEO training courses..
From what I've seen and heard, that is not even comparable to the ord-
inary MSF course.. We'll see how that works out..

Yeah.. I watched the heat that some these clowns tried to hang on you..
I didn't get involved.. don't really engage in those gang up exchanges..
That's one of the reasons that I haven't joined in cyber thrashing another
poster on rec.motorcycles, although I'd sure like to tear into him.. Every
time I've offered any exchange with him, all the group buddies tear into
his ass and I just won't be a party to it..

I hope you take just one thing away from my original suggestion.. practice
practice and more practice.. Once you lose control of any motorcycle
under any conditions and for any reason.. it's hard to regain that control..
Hundreds of thousands of miles down the road, you'll look back and
appreciate that repeated practice, as being responsible for all the years
of motorcycle riding enjoyment..

Regards

Bill Walker
Irving, Tx.

 

You stupid, clueless ****. That's EXACTLY what I did.