Life saver = failure for car drivers

A friend's son was recently failed on his car test for looking over
his shoulder on a slip road instead of relying on his mirrors [2].
The rationale for this was that the driver might 'mis-steer' whilst
looking away. Since the opposite is the case in the bike world/test,
what do the assembled cogniscenti think of this 'development'? [1]

Note for uk.rec.motorcycles.classic - whoops wrong group!
However, to counter a couple of comments there, the point the examiner
made was that car drivers should not be looking over their shoulders
at all - ever - because mirrors should be enough!

Chris D
[1] assuming it is general policy and not just one twat of an examiner
[2] which might explain a number of smidsys?
--

 

Rope wrote

"Lifesavers"

 

Maybe she was checking she still had shoulders.



--



Robbo
Trophy 1200 1998
BotaFOF #19. E.O.S.M 2001/2002/2003/2004/2005
B.O.S.M 2003, 2004, 2005
FURSWB#1 KotL..YTC449
PM#7
BotM#4
..

 

R obbo wrote

Power Dressers shouldn't be allowed to drive.

 

My car driving instructor referred to them as 'blind spot checks' and
said that when changing lanes or leaving a roundabout one should
always check the blind spot(s) for "Johnny Fireblade."

I did it on my test and do it in the car whenever I drive and they
didn't fail me. Passed me with one minor on my 3rd driving test.

 

Dynasty dressers should be shot!


--



Robbo
Trophy 1200 1998
BotaFOF #19. E.O.S.M 2001/2002/2003/2004/2005
B.O.S.M 2003, 2004, 2005
FURSWB#1 KotL..YTC449
PM#7
BotM#4
..

 

If that's the case, why are you allowed to take your seatbelt off and
turn around in your seat to reverse?

I'll go for option 1. Said examiner may need a complaint lodged
against him.

 

examiner's a ****, I'd complain, meself. Why else does the highway code
talk about blind spots?

 

IIRC (and it was 20-odd years ago) we were told that you *had* to look over
your shoulder when pulling off, in case something was in yer blind spot, or
it was a failure point.

 

While I was house/dog sitting for Rod a couple of months ago there was
a programme on in the morning on the BBC (I think) which was about
people doing their driving tests. They seemed to fail them for not
doing a shoulder check before driving off.

 

That's my recollection too (I passed my car test in 1980).

I had several *extremely* close calls with other cars when joining motorways
too. One of the worst cars I had for having a blackspot was a Renault 19,
it was truly horrendous, in the end I had to install one opf those little
supplemental mirrors on top of the wing mirror. In the wrong conditions
there was a blackspot of around 3 seconds if another car was on the rear
offside quarter.

I didn't really do too much looking over my shoulder when driving the car
until I did my bike test, now I tend to always do a lifesaver when turning.

I'll have to ask my lad what his experience was, as he passed his car test
in April after 18 months on 2 wheels. [1]

[1] His CBT expires next month, lazy little sod never did his bike test so I
guess he'll now wait until he's 40 before getting another bike.


--
Dan L (Oldbloke)

My bike 1996 Kawasaki ZR1100 Zephyr
Space in shed where NSR125 used to be
Spare Bike 1990 Suzuki TS50X (Patio Ornament)
BOTAFOT #140 (KotL 2005), X-FOT#000, DIAABTCOD #26, BOMB#18 (slow), OMF#11

 

sright. so the examiner is talking from the wrong orifice ('twasn't kenny
boi in disguise, was it?) and FWIW, if that was the sole stated reason for
failure, I for one would appeal against it, if possible, or enter a
complaint against the examiner for spouting dangerous bullshit.

He should try driving a series II LR if he thinks mirrors show you all you
need to see. Hell, on my SIII with larger wing mirrors, I quite often
resort to opening the door and leaning out to see what's behind. Not, I
grant you, when joining the motorway. But look backs, yeah, often.

 

**** off steve, we've been here too many times before.
Shoulder check !(always)= lifesaver.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2
`\|/`
`

 

Odd this, as I actually took my driving test in Australia, and had the
licence converted to a UK one..

But, when I was doing my training and during the exam, a quick flick of the
head to cover the blindspot was not only encouraged, but expected and you
were told to do it with enough head movement so the examiner could see you
were in fact doing it..

This was, however, quite a few years ago...

 

<Reaches for "DSA Driving: The Essential Skills" ISBN 0-11-552224-7
(2002 edition)>

Page 216, "Driving on Motorways"

""
Joining a Motorway

At an entry point where a slip road leads to the motorway, adjust your
speed to that of the traffic already on the motorway before joining
it.

Give priority to traffic already on the motorway.

Join where there's a suitable gap in the left-hand lane.

Use the MSM/PSL routine

A quick sideways glance might be necessary to verify the position of
other vehicles.

Try to avoid stopping at the end of the slip road unless queuing to
join other slow-moving traffic
""

The last paragraph says that a "quick sideways glance" might be
needed, that would probably count as the Lifesaver[1].

The MSM/PSL routine is defined in the DSA manual as:

"Regardless of your driving experience, you must make the Mirrors -
Signal - Manoeuvre route an integral part of your driving.

Remember this routine:

MIRRORS - check the speed and position of traffic behind you
SIGNAL - consider whether a signal is necessary. If it is, signal
your intention to change course or slow down in good time
MANOEUVRE - a manoeuvre is any change of speed of position."

""
Manoeuvre

This of broken down into:

P - Position
S - Speed
L - Look

Position
Your vehicle must always be in the correct position for the manoeuvre.
When a change of direction is required, move into position in good
time.

Speed
Ensure that the vehicle is travelling at the appropriate speed and in
a suitable gear to complete the manoeuvre safely.

Look
The 'look' phase consists of four elements

Looking - What can you see?
Assessing - What are your options?
Deciding - Depending on what you see.
Acting - Either continue or wait.
""

I just had a look in the index of the DSA *car* manual for the word
"Motorcycle" and it says in the Defensive Driving section (page 195)
under the heading Observing Traffic Behind You:

"A quick sideways glance is sometimes helpful. For example, to check
your blind spot
.. before you change lanes on a motorway or dual carriageway
.. where traffic os merging from the left of right."

However, for those of your still reading this article (good on you,
crack open a nice bottle of red and put your feet up) you may have
noticed that the OP was discussing failing the DSA practical test on
entering a dual carriageway, not a motorway as learners can't enter a
motorway, officer. Page 175 (Bends and Junctions/Dual Carriageways)
says:

"If there's no slip road, emerge as you would to turn left into a
major road.

If there is a slip road, emerge as you would to join a motorway.

.. Adjust your speed to traffic on the main carriageway.
.. Look for a gap in traffic and move into the left-hand lane.
.. A quick sideways glance might be necessary to check the position of
other vehicles (but see page 60*)
.. Stay in the left-hand lane until you get used to the speed of the
traffic in the other lanes.
..Don't emerge unless you are sure you won't cause traffic to alter
speed or course"

So, even for dual carriageways one can do a "quick sideways glance"

* Page 60 says:

"Take a quick sideways glance:

Before changing lane
Before joining a motorway or dual carriageway from a slip road
Before manoeuvring in situation where traffic is merging from the left
or right"

However, I think we need to look at the difference between the
descriptions of the DSA Car Driving manual: "Quick Sideways Glance"
and the DSA Motorcycle Riding manual: "Lifesaver glance."

The DSA's Motorcycle Riding: The Essential Skills (ISBN 0-11-552257-3
2004 Edition) defines it as this:

"The 'lifesaver' check

The 'lifesaver' is a last check over the shoulder in the blind spot to
make sure nothing unexpected is happening before committing yourself
to a manoeuvre. If you're turning, use it to check the blind spot on
the side you intend to turn. Use your judgement about when to use it:
In congested urban situations a lifesaver check is normally essential,
especially when turning right into a minor road, but during high speed
overtaking, when you're certain what's happening behind, it's often
safer to keep your eyes on what's happening ahead."

If you look at them closely you'll notice the DSA says 'quick sideways
glance' for a car driver to check the blind spot and a 'check over the
shoulder' for a motorcycle rider to do the same. I think the DSA
examiner was being a bit picky on failing her for doing a 'lifesaver'
in a car (unless she did over steer while doing it?). The DSA doesn't
require a shoulder check in a car, just a sideways glance.

If I were you I'd lodge a complaint with the DSA about it as I think
that a sideways glance and a shoulder check could be easily argued as
being similar and the examiner could have been mistaken. If you 'win'
then you'll get the test refunded. That is all. The decision will
still remain as a fail.

 

You can see a detailed examination of this in a reply by me a few
minutes ago in this thread if you've got five minutes to spare.

Message-ID: <>

In short, a lifesaver (bike) and a shoulder check (car) aren't the
same thing.

 

Ace wrote

Been where too many times before, in a thread about car driving tests?

No but when it does you are glad you did it.

 

No, this insistance of yours opn using the term "lifesaver" to refer
to any shoulder check. As before, I just want to point out to you that
there are many times when a shoulder check is a good idea, whereas the
"lifesaver" is a specific, last second, just before manouevre,
example.


--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2
`\|/`
`

 

Ace wrote

I do disagree about that. You may well only do it as a last second
thing, or earlier as a part of the whole routine as you feel the need
but it doesn't matter when in the process it happens, looking over your
shoulder is a lifesaver. Yours, somebody else's, it doesn't matter all
that matters is that it saves lives not checks shoulders.

 

God, you're a stubborn old sod. You might just as well use the same
term to describe a mirror check, or looking left and right at a
junction. The point is that the rest of the world, or most of it, uses
the term to mean one specific thing, whereas you will insist on
'correcting' people who conform to this usage.

It's you that has a different usage, not everyone else.

--
_______
..'_/_|_\_'. Ace (brucedotrogers a.t rochedotcom)
\`\ | /`/ GSX-R1000K3
`\\ | //' BOTAFOT#3, SbS#2, UKRMMA#13, DFV#8, SKA#2
`\|/`
`