Lids and HDs

And taking nothing else into consideration, that's about it.

***********************

When the first Bell jet helmet came out, around 1960, they said that because
the helmet was lower down the back of the neck, it would break necks if you
were in an accident,
this was way before full faced helmets came into being.

 

Boom Boom !!

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:11:45 +1000

There was a study done in Melbourne a few years ago.

They looked at crash injuries bad enough for people to be in hospital
and compared them with counts of protective gear seen on riders. Plus
they talked to a lot of people and asked about crashes, injuries, and
protective gear.

There were so few crashes involving lading on your chin that they
couldn't get enough info on open vs full face to be useful.

I note that the injuries I sustained were some broken teeth and a cut
from my safety glasses being pushed into my forehead.

Given the tooth damage, the other lack of facial damage, and the marks
on my glove... it appears that I managed to knock my own teeth out.

If so, then the force required to remove healthy teeth might have been
pushed back into the hand if the hand contacted the chinbar. Meaning
quite possibly a broken hand. Teeth vs hand damage, tough call.

(And never mind what rotational torsion might have been transmitted to
my neck)

As I refuse to have that crash again it is all just speculation. Maybe
I'd have had no damage in a fullface, maybe I'd have broken my neck,
maybe if I landed slightly differently there'd have been no damage or
heaps more.

Dunno.

But I still wear an openface helmet 15 years later, and the flipface
I bought as a compromise hasn't been worn in about that time.

I might be a special case in that because I have a size XS head and
most helmet shells are size M or larger, I find my eyes are well back
in a helmet and the shape of a fullface around the chinbar cuts my
vision back noticeably.

No fullface I've tried gives me the vision an openface does. (And
they make turning my head difficult as I have a relatively short neck
compared to the average man.) As I think vision is important in
preventing crashes I will take better vision over unlikely facial
damage every time.

Zebee

 

In aus.motorcycles on Wed, 13 Jul 2011 14:11:45 +1000

A thought.

These seem like riders who are not expecting crashes. In other words,
are not into "sporting" riding.

Is spending heaps on a fullface and leathers all about risk
compensation? Doing riskier things because you feel the risk is now
less?

Zebee

 

I had a rather spectacular accident at high speed on Melbourne road well
known for motorcyclists trying too hard. I hit a bump got a tankslapper
which transferred to the rear end which threw me over the bars and I
slid a fair way up the centre of the road. I was able to ascertain the
distance i travelled because there was a road sign adjacent the spot
where I ended up and I walked off the road and sat down next to that
sign. Aside from a cut on my leg requiring 15 stitches I was mostly
unscathed.

About 10 years later, another motorcyclist had a simlar accident at
similar speed, (wearing a full face helmet), hit the same bump had the
same tankslapper, over the bars, hit the kerb so hard with the chinpiece
of his helmet that the helmet came off his head and he hit the the same
sign that I had stopped adjacent. He was probably going faster than me
and I'm unsure whether his injuries were caused by his head hitting the
kerb/road or his contact with the sign, however while our accidents were
almost identical, i walked away and that was the last thing he saw.

Anyhow, getting back to open face helmets, I believe that the damage
inflicted on a full face helmet is not indicative of the damage expected
on the chin of the wearer of an open faced helmet, because if you're
sliding down the road scraping the front off your helmet you've got no
reason to lift it off however if you're sliding down the road scraping
your face off, your reflexes will almost certainly instinctively lift
your face off the road before you even realise what's going on.

Nev..

 

My sister lost her two front teeth when learning to ride (and drop) her
Honda 90 step-through.

Not a "chin" injury as noted, but pretty traumatic and painful nonetheless.
Enough to change her mind about riding.

A fullface would've probably prevented the injury (I imagine).

 

Have a good look at the guys that plan to crash often.

On almost every ride I do someone goes down in the group, and on some
days every single one has an off. Climbing slippery rocks or riding
quick in rutted muddy mountain tracks takes it's toll. Sure we're not
the average sports rider but we do push the limits.

Helmet laws are there so you wear something, they don't stipulate a full
face with neck brace and full leathers, chest protectors etc... I'm not
sure the laws say you NEED footwear or not.

Nobody wears a lid in our group. Might mean something.


Brad
--
Brad Leyden
6° 43.5816' S 146° 59.3097' E WGS84
To mail spam is really hot but please
reply to thread so all may benefit
(or laugh at my mistakes)

 

In 40 odd years of riding I remeber only one broken neck from a helmeted
rider accident , and a decapitation however a number of riders had
limbs missing one bloke I new back around 1969 or 70 took a spill on
his 500 through a car door flung open , lost the days old clip front off
this open face and got a scare and a sore cheek .

 

I'd be willing to bet the proportion of loss-of-front-tooth injuries
would be much higher among the pedal bicycle riders than open faced
motorcycle riders, however aside from a few riders doing hard core
mountainbike, BMX and half pipe any sort of tooth protection is
virtually non-existant among bicycle riders.

I wonder if bicycle forums have full face vs open face discussions and
why the vast majority of bicycle riders don't consider the risk of
injury they might sustain would be worth exceeding the minimum legal
requirements to satisfy the helmet laws.

Nev..

 

Anger management issues, Cam?

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

I not only do not expect crashing, I take great care to ride
defensively and safley. That includes making allowances for my own
skills deficiencies, my bike's handing limitations, and all external
conditions. I have nothing to prove and I don't suffer from "the need
for speed".

I'm not sure many would admit such to themsleves or others. Nor am I
sure they would even be aware of such. You appear to attribute very
high levels of self-awareness to bike riders. I am way more cynical
about same.

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

Not really, Gerry.

My comment was based on the experience of riding down P'matta road, not
the most pleasant of motorcycle trips normally, but, on this occasion, I
was following in the wake of a classic seven foot tall hard core bikie,
complete with all the stuff, patches, tatts, and a leather scabbard
along the side of his H-D, with the butt end of a rifle or shot gun
poking out.

Nobody, but nobody, didn't see this bloke, and gave him a sufficiently
clear and open run, that there was enough room for me, following at a
respectable distance, to also get a clear run down the road.

regards,
CrazyCam

 

The conclusions you reach in your anecdote are so logically flawed
that it's pointless to reply in any way other than "Ha ha ha, great
joke, Cam." Except, even as a joke it is disturbing.

=================

Onya bike

Gerry

 

While on the topic of anecdotal stories and full face helmets I heard
that one of Perths premier facial reconstruction surgeons was now flat
out busy because of the new trend in scooters and open face helmets.

Fraser

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 14 Jul 2011 13:30:34 +0800

Story?

Urban legend.

Why do I think that? Because it's *news* that's why.

IT's big enough news that the trauma surgeons all over Oz would know
about it.

It's big enough news to have made it to the bike mags. Or even the
mainstream papers because it's a great bad news story with good
potential for heartstring tugging.

My guess is someone said "I bet there's a lot of facial
reconstructions" and the story went from there.

DOn't get too scared about chins. All you silly buggers who are
wearing Draggins thinking you will be wonderfully protected should
piss 'em off and use motorcross strap on knee and shin armour. Armoured gear
is the big take away from the MCC study on protective gear, especially
leg armour.

What, looks dorky? Too much like work? Awww.... You'd never
compromise your safety for looks or convenience or comfort would you?



Zebee
- who thinks this argument is like speeding: people who wear less kit
than you do are careless idiots, people who wear more than you do
are paranoid nancies.

 

for anyone who cares:

http://www.thecochranelibrary.com/userfiles/ccoch/file/Safety_on_the_road/CD004333.pdf

is a Cochrane review of the literature about lids.

"Both Cannell 1982 and Vaughan 1977 found full-face helmets compared
with open- faced helmets (or 'jet helmet') provided no significant
advantage in relation to head injury (OR 1.13, 95% CI 0.34 to 3.76
and OR 0.88, 95% CI 0.58 to 1.32, respectively). Vaughan 1977,
Krantz 1985, O'Connor 2002 and O'Connor 2005 found that full-face
helmets compared with open-faced hel- mets (or 'jet helmet') had
no significant effect on neck injuries (OR 0.85, 95% CI 0.26 to
2.80, OR 0.84, 95% CI 0.07 to 9.56, OR 0.76, 95% CI 0.15 to 3.81
and OR 1.08, 95% CI 0.27 to 3.12, respectively). Similarly Cannell
1982 found that full-face helmets compared with open-face helmets
did not have a significant effect on facial injury"

Wear what you find comfortable and sensible. Do not expect your gear
to protect you in all circumstances. Avoiding crashes is much better
than having them so buy your gear to be comfortable and make sure it
doesn't interfere with riding at all - vision, heat/cold, movement.

But if you do have a crash your gear has to stay in place, so it has to
fit well. Which, alas, is easier with helmets than armoured clothing.

Zebee

 

"Fraser Johnston" wrote

Google search appears to have missed those many accidents.

Theo

 

"Nev.." wrote

In WA, Third party compulsory insurance is as follows
Cars $245
Bikes $139
Bikes under 75cc, includes scooters $22.

Factor in that in WA you can get a >50cc scooter licence when you turn
16. I don't think that covers very many facial reconstructions.

While I was looking that up I found this surprising statement

Safe driver reward - free licence renewal
Provisional drivers (P platers) who do not commit a traffic offence
during their two-year provisional period will receive a one-year free
licence when they renew their licence for the first time after
completing the provisional period. This applies to all eligible
drivers licences expiring on 31 December 2005 or later.

How about that?

Theo

 

"Zebee Johnstone" wrote

Yup, looks like it.

You don't really think people are going to hand back their hard-won
Poser Permits do you?

You still got yours?

Theo
PP # 43

 

In aus.motorcycles on Thu, 14 Jul 2011 15:37:02 +0800

Of course I have!

I don't have the original shorty black illegal lid anymore, but I do
have a pudding basin in case I get another vintage bike.

Zebee