KTM pull out of MotoGP

http://www.cyclenews.com/ShowStory.asp?HeadlineID=8050

Is this the end of the road for KrSr?

Aprilia, KR-V5, KTM-V4, WCM, Blata. Is there any hope for a 3rd party
engine in MotoGP and where does he turn now, BMW?

I know engine design at this level isn't easy, and in recent years,
clutch and engine management has become crucial. The KTM engine wasn't
short of power so it can be done. What's puzzling is why the KR-V5 was
down on power. WCM have done very little with their engine since it was
launched, I wonder if there's something there.

But the biggest problem is the circular one of finance. You can't get
the sponsorship without being competitive, you can't get competitive
without the sponsorship. And you can't get decent tyres either. The
factories have never (with the possible exception of Ducati) been able
to provide competitive engines to private teams, even back in the days
of the Yamaha two stroke.

So are we stuck with 15 highly competitive factory bikes and that's it.

 

Not the end, but probably an intermission. KRSR will be back in 2007. He has
enough contacts to find an engine supplier. BMW, MV, or East Asia are all
possibilties...
The real problem for KTM was the switch to 800cc. Didn't make any sense to
be spending money on a dead end project, especially with the 250cc project
needing development work.KTM sold a piece of the pie to Polaris just
recently, so cash flow is a concern. And from reading the press release, KTM
was footing the lions share of the bill. Being used to winning, being a
spear carrier isn't very appealing when it doesn't offer the possibilities
of future sucess. To be honest, being in SBK would make more sense for KTM
if they tweak the rules for twins.
Of course, KRSR might just be the first casuality of the switch to 800cc.
Makes you wonder if the corporate egos at Ducati, Kawasaki and Suzuki will
fund new programs.So 15 factory bikes might be 6-8 very quickly

 

Honda. That's my prediction, you heard it here, I expect full credit
for my psychic abilities when KR announces it. Of course if I'm simply
wrong, that's an everyday occurance.

 

One of the major problems was testing time. Doing development work at the
track is a good way to get handed your head at any pro level.
Spending a year working out the bugs with a new engine would be a smart way
to go for a 2007 program.But that raises the question of keeping your grid
spot. Roberts already leased one out in 2005. And I'd doubt if anyone would
step to the plate with lease machines to tide him over...

Excuse it may be, but it also reflects reality. MotoGP is corporate
PR.Playing in 125GP and 250GP takes up resources as well. Qualify last, run
at the back and after awhile the question "Why the hell are we doing this?"
raises it's ugly head.Especially when your 125 program has gone from joke to
potential world champions.

Roberts was thought to be a cheap alternative by KTM. Dipping your toe in
the water time.
Only the water is full of piranhas at that level. KTM found out that dipping
your toe in might cost you your leg.
All in or all out seem to be the choices that were on the table And all in
was too rich for their blood

LOL the Japanese often say yes when they mean no. Have some business
dealings with them and you'll realise the playing field isn't the same.
Until the bikes are wheeled onto the grid, I wouldn't be sure that everybody
will play the game...
The major cost point in a 4 stroke engine is in cylinder head development.
And in dropping to 800cc the rules are also lowering the tank capacity to 21
liters.
So the heads will be very different to the current ones. Improved BMEP and
volumetric effiency will be the keywords and they don't come cheap...
Yeah you could be debore and destroke the current engine, but a clean sheet
of paper engine will clean your clock...

Yamaha come to mind?

 

Or perhaps he could get Yamaha to supply him with a motor.
If I were another major team, I would definitely consider KrSr for the
Team Manager, however who knows if King Kenny could work for anyone else.

 

It looks like they're going to dust off the KR-V5 for Brno. But it's a
tall order to get it ready in time.

There's a puzzle here as to why the Kr-V5 didn't make more power. But
then there's a puzzle as to why the Foggy-Petronas is so slow as well.

 

And what's happened to the Motoczysz?
Bummers

 

Nothing. It's still in the baby stages of development, little
more than a proof-of-concept prototype.

 

It was at Laguna for MotoGp and was supposed to be at the Seattle 100
but it didn't make Seattle. I asked Rich Oliver about it at Laguna and
he said, "it's coming along."

I'm doing 2 PIR days in the next month, I'll let you guys know if I see
it out there.

BTW, speaking of 250 two smokes,(reference Rich O.) I'm psyched that a
buddy of mine came in 8th in the 250 USGPRU races at Barber.


http://www.roadracingworld.com/news/article/?lnk=rss&article=23710

 

Is Rich riding the Motoczysz as a test rider?
Are any other fast guys developing it?

Bummers
We don't get much info on it in Oz m/c press/websites.

 

There's no magic here, it is just engineering, math and physics. The
whole point of KR being in the UK was to take advantage of the many F1
engine builders and the motorsports engineering expertise. They had a
ground up build but at the end they were only really matching tuned
stock engine power. Pretty much the same that a private superbike team
might achieve. Look at what WCM did on virtually no money. They took an
R1 engine and progressively replaced everything until there's no R1
left. KR managed to match that but that was all and they spent a lot of
far-east money doing it.

F-Petronas have been through 2 engine designers and have ended up
(allegedly) using Ricardo to do development work. Ricardo have a
reputation for being right on the cutting edge of engine design,
although it's all done for private contract so you rarely hear of them
as a brand. By rights they should have ended up quite a bit further
ahead than they have.

I'm really not having a dig at a view that only factories can be
successful in Superbike. I'm genuinely interested as an (ex-)engineer to
know why some small groups of engineers outside Japan (Ducati, Aprilia,
KTM) can come up with serious power out of a totally new engine, while
others seem to fail completely.

Way back in the history of KR, they chose a V5 because they were fed up
with being passed on the straights all the time. They were shooting for
225hp and got 190hp. So what went wrong?

 

Michael Czysz is pretty fast his ownself. I've been on the track with
him a few times.

I know Rich was testing it last year at PIR. Now that he's retired, I
don't know if he is still testing it.

I'll take some pics if I see it out at one of the trackdays soon.

Here are some pics a buddy of mine took last summer.

http://home.teleport.com/~se6bq5/motoczysz/

 

Hey Brutus, I just posted your C-1 pics from last summer!

 

"Pretty fast" & and "MotoGP fast" are probably 2 secs a lap apart tho &
that's just in the riders.

It has to be able to lap at leading Superbike lap times to make it to
the back of a MotoGP grid.

Thanks for the pics - its a NICE looking piece of
architecture/engineering - but does it GO FAST?

Bummers

 

Well, if car F1 is anywhere to go by, specialists can play a major role in
the top echelons of racing. In fact, often large manufacturers, knowing
their core focus and competency is very different. will merely outsource top
end racing efforty to such spacialists and merely pay to have their brand
featured. Just because a company makes billions of bucks doesn't mean it
necessarily automatically will majorly prioritize an effort and achieve
superior results. They need focus and to assemble the right team. The KTM
example is not necessarily a case for the natural superiority of large
manufacturers, but merely the fact that the KTM effort was half-hearted and
that they did not bring the necessary strategic focus to the table. Perhaps
the current superiority of traditional manufacturers just comes to show
motorcycle racing at the top level has not reached the sophistication of its
car racing counterpart.

....pablo

 

Just add KR to the list of people they've screwed.

I would omit the word "perhaps."

The only interesting engine tech development recently has been the
Aprilia Cube. Suspension? Very refined components, gas (non-emulsion)
forks, but forks, nonetheless. Coil spring over fancy shock in
the rear -- stiffer and lighter swingarms, etc. Very little change
in two decades.

If I were to transfer F1 technology to MotoGP it would
be sequential shift gearbox with engine speed matching on
downshift (ditch the mechanical slipper clutch) and meaningful
traction control.

 

Perhaps Illmor? (not till the 800cc motors tho...)

http://www.crash.net/uk/en/news_view.asp?cid=6&nid=116997&apn=2

big

 

Actually yes. The Cube and KTM had no real top end power problems as
evidenced by the trap speeds posted. Their problems were to do with
getting the power to the ground and making it rideable. The KR V5 never
even got the top end power.

Ducati obviously have a lot of engine building and development
experience. And they have some ties (and favours?) into the Italian
motorsports world. Every so often you hear the rumours about links with
Fiat and Ferrari. I suspect this is actually pretty informal as two
engineers meet for a coffee! The GP engine took them into areas they
really hadn't been before. Not just small cylinders but ultra high revs
as well.

It's not at all clear to me where the compromises change as you raise
weight and fuel consumption slightly and reduce capacity. I think
there's going to be a race for revs and we'll see people try to use the
current designs with just a destroke. But without making the valves
smaller, the valve train will then definitely be the limiting factor.
Honda will of course do something odd. It might be a miniature V5, it
might just as easily be a V3. It probably won't be a straight 4. Even
though the press keep talking about the V3, I can't see Honda not
wanting to out power the competition which will lead them to more
cylinders rather than less. Or maybe we just get an RC45-2007

Perhaps it really does just come down to money spent on R&D. I could
point out the long succession of private engines (or factory badged) in
F1 and Indy but there are factors of 10 difference in the funding.

 

Haven't most (production!) motorcycles had sequential shift gearboxes
for about 50 years? 1-N-2-3-4-5-4-3-2-N-1 ain't no H-pattern there!

Bummers

 

Glad you said that - I thought exactly the same. And engine speed
matching on downshift is relatively easily done with the throttle hand
Also, this doesn't do away with the need for a slipper clutch at
all, imo.