Just failed the CA DMV motorcycle popsicle test (and I thought Ihad passed)

gpsman wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2013 05:11:04 -0800:

There are eight hundred thousand registered motorcycles in California.

I have no idea how many cyclists there are (presumably vastly more
than there are motorcycles registered), so, let's just assume for
now (unless we have better data) there are two million licensed
cyclists.

If just half those licensed cyclists took the MSF class, and,
if they each paid $250 for the privilege, then the MSF has
"raked in" about 250 million dollars, in toto.

That's a LOT of money!

If you say it's 'not' a lot of money, please mail me a check for
just 1% of that?

Note: Revenue is not profit, as we all know; however, revenue
is money that 'can' be spent (as we equally know) ... so I'm
not sure why we're even discussing this.

 

tomorrow wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2013 07:16:02 -0800:

I calculated (in a previous post) they 'took in'
roughly about two hundred and fifty million dollars.

However, I suspect they have to report this information,
so it would be best to work with the numbers they report.

 

I understood all that before I took the MSF class.

It's a difference of opinions, based on calculated risk benefits equations.

So is riding the bike and deciding what to wear and a myriad of other
decisions made ever split second while you're riding the bike.

As I had said, arguing the point with the riding coach was not going
to get that piece of paper at the end of the class, so I merely mentioned
to them my opinion and did it their way.

The real point, which you missed, was that some of the riders (all of
whom passed) almost hit the instructor in that panic stop, perhaps
because they were concentrating on shifting or perhaps because they
didn't know how to control the tiny motorcycle.

 

But that won't count for the license.

 

I confess I had to look that one up:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning–Kruger_effect

The OP had admitted as such.

 

Exactly. But he didn't attempt to blame the examination, the
examiner, the bike, his training, the state, the surface, proximity of
a camera, ad nauseum.

He readily accepted full responsibility and acknowledged he was not
the best judge of his skills, and indicated he had "learned"... which
are among the rarest things a motorist ever does. I almost shit
myself.

A not insignificant number of basic CDL students arrive expecting to
not just teach the class, but also school the instructors. All they
want is someone to show them how to shift and back, and they'll take
it from there...

 

Ben Kaufman wrote on Thu, 28 Feb 2013 14:39:17 -0500:

Ah. Good! Very good. (makes sense) Thanks.

I really wasn't up at all on the law for non-profits because
I really don't deal with any of them (except this one).

 

The motorcycles in the MSF class don't have mirrors!

 

I admit all I wanted was the piece of paper at the end of the class.

I got it. So did every single other person in that class.

I'd wager that none of them (including me) would even come close to
passing the keyhole test on a decent sized bike in three tries.

 

Given this:
- http://dmv.ca.gov/about/profile/official.pdf
- Source: DMV Forecasting Unit, telephone 916-657-8008

I spoke with "Brock" in "statistics forecasting", at that
telephone number above. He was a nice guy, but he never heard of
the MSF part of the motorcycle test; so, he asked me to send
him a snail mail letter asking for whatever we wanted by way
of statistics and he'd see what he can get for us.

What information would tell us what we need to know?

How's this for starters?

1. Number of motorcycle licenses issued in 2012 (or any recent year).
2. Breakdown of HOW they passed their driving test (MSF or DMV).
3. Number of motorcycle ATTEMPTS at the DMV riding test.
4. Pass/fail statistics and motorcycle SIZE for those attempts.

How's that sound for the basic statistics we'd want to know?

 

Don't call it the MSF, call it the BRC (offered by the CMSP).
http://www.dmv.ca.gov/pubs/dl655/mcycle_htm/requirements.htm

------- < snip here > --------

Motorcycle Handbook License Requirements

California issues the following license classes for two-wheel vehicle
operation:

Class M1—You may operate any two-wheel motorcycle, motor-driven
cycle, or motorized scooter and all vehicles listed under Class M2.

NOTE: The permit and license requirements in this handbook pertain to two-
wheel vehicles and are referenced in Section12804.9 of the California
Vehicle Code.

Class M2—You may operate any motorized bicycle, moped, or a bicycle
with an attached motor, or a motorized scooter.

You may obtain a Class M1 or M2 license at any DMV office which provides
driver license services. Motorcycle law tests and skill tests are
required.

NOTE: Class C licensees may operate a motorcycle with a side car attached
or a three-wheel motorcycle.
Earning Your License

Safe riding requires knowledge and skill.Testing two-wheel vehicle
operators is the best measurement of the skills necessary to operate
safely in traffic because people often overestimate their own abilities.
DMV’s licensing exams are designed to be scored objectively.

To obtain your license, you must pass a knowledge test and a motorcycle
skills test.

Knowledge test questions are based on information, practices, and ideas
from this handbook and the California Driver Handbook.

The motorcycle skills test is conducted in either an actual traffic
environment or in a controlled off-street area.
Basic Rider Course

Motorcycle applicants under 21 years of age are required to complete a
Basic Rider Course before receiving a motorcycle instruction permit.

Motorcycle applicants 21 years of age and older are encouraged to enroll
in the Basic Rider Course. The Basic Rider Course offered by the
California Motorcyclist Safety Program (CMSP) provides hands-on
motorcycle knowledge and skill training for novice and experienced
riders. CMSP has trained thousands of riders over the past several years.
The DMV motorcycle skills test is waived upon completion of the Basic
Rider Course and submission of the Certificate of Completion of
Motorcycle Training (DL 389). For more information you may contact CMSP
at 1-877-RIDE-411 or visit www.ca-msp.org.

NOTE: The Certificate of Completion of Motorcycle Training (DL 389) is
valid for 12 months from the issue date.
Apllication (sic) Requirements — All Drivers 21 Years of Age and Older

These are the requirements if you already have an A, B or basic Class C
driver license and are 21 years of age and over. Refer to the California
Driver Handbook for basic class C driver license requirements.

To obtain an instruction permit to operate an M1/M2 vehicle on public
roads, you must:

Submit a completed DMV application form (DL 44 or DL 44C).
Pay the required application fee.
Pass an eye exam.
Have your picture taken.
Give a fingerprint and signature.
Pass a test(s) on traffic laws and signs for the class of license you
now have unless you have taken the test(s) within the prior twelve months.
Pass an additional law test on motorcycle driving rules.

NOTE: The Class M1/M2 permit does not allow you to carry passengers and
you must ride during daylight hours only and not on a freeway.
Cheating

The use of testing aids is strictly prohibited. This includes, but is not
limited to: the California Motorcycle Handbook, California Driver
Handbook, cheat sheets, or electronic communication devices such as a
cell phone, hand-held computer, etc. If any testing aid(s) are used
during the written test, the written test will be marked as a “failure.â€
An action may also be taken by DMV against your driving privilege or the
driving privilege of anyone else who assists you in the examination
process.
Minors’ M1/M2 Permit Requirements

To obtain a Class M1/M2 permit, you must:

Be 15 ½ years of age and bring proof you have finished both driver
education and driver training. (certificates of completion of driver
education and completion of driver Training are required) or be currently
licensed.
Complete the application requirements.
Have your parents’ * signatures on the application form.
Provide a Completion of Motorcycle Training Certificate (DL389) from
an approved CHP motorcycle rider training course. Applicants under 21
years of age are required by law to provide a DL 389 before issuance of
an instruction permit. Motorcycle training courses are located throughout
California. For more information and to locate the nearest training site,
call 1-877RIDE-411 or visit www.ca-msp.org.

NOTE: The Certificate of Completion of Motorcycle Training (DL 389) is
valid for 12 months from the issue date.

* The term parents means both custodial parents unless only one parent
has custody, or all legal guardians unless only one legal guardian has
custody.
Minors’ M1/M2 License Requirements

To obtain a Class M1/M2 license, you must:

Complete the requirements listed above.
Be at least 16 years old.
Hold a Class M1/M2 permit for 6 months prior to the issuance of a
motorcycle license.

NOTE: The skills test may be waived for a person presenting a valid DL
389; however, you may be required to perform an observation test for a
motorcycle only license.
Adults’ 18 through 20 Years of Age M1/M2 Permit Requirements

To obtain a Class M1/M2 instruction permit, you must:

Complete the application requirements.
Provide a Completion of Motorcycle Training Certificate (DL 389) from
an approved CHP motorcycle rider training course. Applicants under 21
years of age are required by law to provide a DL 389 before issuance of
an instruction permit. Motorcycle training courses are located throughout
California. For more information and to locate the nearest training site,
call 1-877RIDE-411 or visit www.ca-msp.org.

NOTE: The Certificate of Completion of Motorcycle Training (DL 389) is
valid for 12 months from the issue date.
Adults’ 18 through 20 Years of Age M1/M2 License Requirements

To obtain a Class M1/M2 license, you must:

Complete the requirements listed above.
Hold the Class M1/M2 permit for 6 months prior to issuance of a
motorcycle license.

NOTE: The skills test may be waived for a person presenting a valid DL
389; however, you may be required to perform an observation test for a
motorcycle only license.
License Requirements — All Drivers 21 Years of Age or Older

To obtain a Class M1/M2 license, you must:

Complete the application and permit requirements listed above.
Pass a DMV skill test or present a Completion of Motorcycle Training
Certificate (DL 389) to waive the skill test.

NOTE: If you are 21 years of age or older, you can attend a CHP approved
motorcycle training course. If you complete this motorcycle training
course and submit a valid DL389, your insurance cost may be reduced.
Check with your insurance company to see if you qualify for a reduced
rate. Additionally, the knowledge and skills you learn in this motorcycle
rider training course may help you avoid a serious injury or a fatal
collision. This motorcycle training course is highly recommended.

Pass a road test, if you are applying for a Class M1/M2 license only.

Motorcycle Skills Test

Basic vehicle control skills are included in the motorcycle skills test
to determine your ability to maneuver in normal traffic situations.

You will be asked to identify nine items on your motorcycle before the
actual riding portion of the test. The items you will be asked to
identify are the:

Starter
Kill switch
Clutch
Throttle
Gear selector
Dimmer switch
Brakes
Turn signals
Horn

The motorcycle skills test allows the rider to demonstrate his or her
ability to control the motorcycle through several skills. Applicants
taking the skills test at the same time should consider the size
motorcycle they plan to operate. The motorcycle skills test is a pass/
fail test. You will be asked to demonstrate the following four skills,
which include tracking paths (the area within and including the tracking
lines):

Serpentine Ride – Beginning on the right of the first cone, you will
weave through a row of five traffic cones. At the end of the row of cones
you will begin the circle ride.
Circle Ride – Ride around the circle twice in a clockwise direction
keeping the front wheel within the tracking path, and return to the
starting point, weaving once more through the row of five cones.
Slow Ride – Ride slowly between two parallel lines keeping the front
tire within the tracking path. At the end of the tracking path, begin the
circle ride twice in a counterclockwise direction or by turning right
into the circle tracking path.
Gear Shift Ride – Ride in a straight path, shifting gears up, then
down, complete a U-turn and return, shifting gears up, then down and end
in a smooth stop at the starting point.

A diagram of the motorcycle skills test area follows.

 

No, that's not the point. The point is, you take all advice to maximise
your chances of survival.

Cheers, Bjorn.

 

Hi Bjorn,
I realize what you're saying. However, take note of the following
when anyone has an 'opinion' of the single 'proper' way to panic stop.

1. Does the state require gear shifting, by law in a panic stop?
2. Does the DMV actually TEST panic stop shifting in the DMV rider test?
3. Does the DMV even ASK any questions about it in the written test?
4. Does the DMV actually TEST for gear shifting in the cager's test?

The answer, to all of these, is 'no'.

The age-old shifting during panic stops question is older than
you or I are, and it will always be an opinion, until/unless it
actually becomes law (in which case it's no longer our opinion).

Until/unless it becomes the law, then it's your opinion.

This reminds me of the standard rule in aviation of:
aviate ... navigate ... communicate

Point is, you don't try to do too many things when you're in
a critical situation. You take then in stride.

DISCLAIMER:
I do realize that many people have many opinions as to how
to ride a bike (witness the lay-it-down crowd or the
"I'll just hold on to the handlebars" crowd. Such is life.

 

There seems to be missing a distinction between panic stop and
emergency stop. I propose they are similar, but not identical.

A panic stop is slamming on the brakes to stop in the shortest
possible distance, as last resort.

An emergency stop would be more controlled and leave a rider prepared
to execute another evasive maneuver.

There are no end of opinions, but "best practices" have evolved over
much time and after much -unemotional- analysis.

A simple example is use of turn signals. State laws stipulate
initiation for so many feet, in most cases100 I think, before
execution of a maneuver and makes no distinction for lane changes or
right-angle turns and velocity isn't included as a factor; a turn is a
turn, one size signals fits all, and obviously there could be better
practice than that.

Best practice has been accepted to include "before braking" in the
instance of right-angle turns based on the logical premise of warning
motorists to the rear that the vehicle will be slowing, and why,
before the brake light/s illuminate.

Best practice for lane changes has been widely accepted as 3 seconds
at minimum before initiation of the maneuver, which renders velocity
irrelevant as a factor and so applies across the board.

 

Now that's interesting. I have always assumed we're talking dire
circumstances, do or die, fall off the cliff or stop, get sandwiched
between the rock and the hard place situation on the "panic stop".

If what I always thought of as the panic stop is actually a
"much less dire" stop, then things could easily be different.

For example, let's slow down this "must less dire" stop, for arguments
sake, to a mere "slow down at a reasonable pace" stop, and then, of
course you'd shift downward through the gears as you perform that
slowdown stop.

Likewise, even if we sped it up a bit, by decelerating past more
than one gear, you'd 'still' likely want to shift downward.

But, if it's a oh-my-god there's a dump truck upside down in the
middle of the road, kind of stop, then, it's my opinion you stop
in the shortest distance humanly possible (it helps that some
bimmers have ABS) without losing control of the ride.

If you 'can' or 'want' to shift downward automatically during
that oh-my-god stop, then fine, have a blast. But, my example of
aviate-navigate-communicate was that you 'shed' tasks in
emergency situations for a specific reason.

Remember the guy who landed in the Hudson River with the
passenger jet? He stopped communicating because he was navigating
to the river and then he stopped navigating when he had his
hands full aviating into the waves.

Shedding tasks in emergency situations is as old as humankind
(and older), so that's why my opinion on a panic stop is more
conservative (i.e., harkens back to before gears were invented)
than you guys seem to be.

I never said it was more than an opinion though ...

 

Yikes! I have both a bimmer and a beemer. I goofed there, and wasn't
thinking (most of the time I'm in the cage). Apologies. I'm mortified
myself!

 

My inference was that there isn't much difference between a for-profit and
a non-profit from the consumer end of things. MSF provides a service for a
fee. They aren't doing that out of the goodness of their heart, but are
doing it as a means to put money in their pocket. People are free to use
the service or not. Whether MSF is raking in the cash or not is immaterial
really.

I was curious about the workings though, so Googled MSF. It appears that
Sponsors, such as A.B.A.T.E here in Alaska, are the ones who actually
provide the on-site service. For ABATE to issue MSF certified completion
cards, they must use MSF curriculum and MSF certified trainers. So, it
appears that it is ABATE and the certified trainers who give money to MSF.
The consumer gives money to ABATE (also a non-profit).

MSF then is the national standard organization, while ABATE (here in Alaska
anyway) is a company that provides training which complies with the
national standard. The charge for the class is a combination of MSF and
ABATE's cost of doing business.

 

Robert Bolton wrote on Fri, 01 Mar 2013 01:56:54 -0600:

Wholly agree. You're more eloquent than I in summarizing. In fact,
can you think of a single way that it's different for the consumer?

Again, nicely stated. I'm glad someone actually understands.

This is not true in California. If you're under a certain age,
you MUST take your riding test at the BRC class. Period.

If you've got an expensive bike, you'll likely weigh the costs
of dropping it at walking speeds practicing weekends on the keyhole
versus taking the BRC class. You 'could' argue that's free will,
but, you also have to look at the comparison of the severity of
the two tests to see that you're actually being shunted.

 

Duh. There would otherwise be no such training available for so
little money.

Except, of course, no money goes in their pockets.

And motor vehicle crashes are not the leading cause of death of
children 15-19.
http://www.teendriversource.org/stats/teen/detail/107

I'd argue if you've got an expensive bike and fear dropping it at
walking speeds and that suggests nothing to you, you're a moron, and
that you are better than perfectly ignorant because so much of what
you believe you know is obviously wrong and contrary to actual
evidence posted in this thread, so you must be functionally illiterate
or delusional as well.

 

The MSF was founded to provide a public safety service. If someone
can show that the staff at the MSF is enriching themselves through
operation of the organization by certifying state rider program
training curricula, I'd love to see that.