Jerez - Mamola's view

More apealing to the fans [point]

Didn't they retire?
BTW youre favorite american hero, Roberts are proving to be the most
overrated driver out there these days. How can you comment on guys like
Criville and Europen favorization with that useless guy out there? That take
away any rest of credibility to your conspriacy theories.
EuroGod, Powers To Be, JIIS, Europeanizing... give me a brake.

How about two (or three depending on timeframe) times WSB winner Honda?

That's at most an Italian thing, but more likely a money thing, dirty money
thing but don't confuse it with "Europeanizing"

Well, that did hardly gain the WSB series popularity (in Europe), did it?

It's hard to see what you want us to agree upon, or deny. I guess all agree
that the sport survives on money/fans but as all Europeans know, the tobacco
industry is on it's way out of the sport as it is from F1. But tobacco or
not, that's got nothing to do with Europeanizing the sport.

/MBE

 

That I don't know, my only point was it wasn't a complete turnaround
from going fast to droping off - he was down on the pace for quite a while
- could be tires, or other setup issues, but the only way he got the lead
in the first place was by taking more risks early on on the wet (which may
be because as you said - his tires my have been cut)

Maybe.

I just enjoyed that there was some nice close racing in the top five,
the was one corner where Pedrosa went from first to fifth!

it all came right done to the end, Stoner grabbing the win & the another
last minute battle for 4th. - Good Racing to watch (And i didn't have to
listen to Porto whine the Danny should have to race with a pocket full
of lead

Bruce

 

So Doohan is little less than a medicore rider that got lucky by having
pathetic competition? Interesting.

I just stated that when your so called "Europeanizing" in WSB made the
japanse manufacturers pull out, WSB lost most of it's interest among fans in
Europe.

I think it's a little early to say the bike is crap. I think hopkins might
prove you wrong.
Besides, there is a lot more. Check out your statistics but I'll bet you
won't find any one who has retired from more races with a running bike than
Roberts. Actually is there any one who do that except him?

As I said, let's wait and see before we juge this years bike.

I won't go into the imbalance thing but my point was that several tried but
failed to build a good wsb twin, many non european companies. The favor for
twin might have been there as it favor fours today but it didn't favor
Europeans, except that Ducati got too good at it.

Not in the same sense as NY is part of US, no. As in "Europe is part of the
world", yes, but for most people here it make much more sense to say "Italy
is part of the world". EC is still most of all a trading union, not somthing
that make European feel unified. Seperate economies, laws, traditions....

Get real. Or better, get a reality check regarding Europe, it's not USE,
it's not even EC.

Dirty money is difficult to ask for in an open bidding. "who want's to fill
my personal pockets"?

Strange, not.

Besides, maybe I'm wrong but I thought Michelin is Frensh? At least it used
to be.
BTW wasn't or isn't Ducati Amercan owned?

Really, to me it sounds more like you conclude that it's all a European
conspiracy?

So who's the big bad wolves here? The American Tobacco company or FIM/Dorna,
and other Euro-fixated powers?

/MBE

 

They still have it in F1 when they race at Indy. There is apparently some
restriction on the number of events a tobacco sponsor (like maybe one?) can
show their logos. That's why some teams (West/McLaren, Mild Seven/Renault,
Lucky Strike/Honda, etc.) were wearing their tobacco sponsors and others
(Marlboro/Ferrari, Benson & Hedges/Jordan?) were not.

 

That amounts to saying he wasn't as good as the US riders, when the fact is
that he came, and quickly gave them fits on a *nasty* bike until he had a
huge spill. And I have to say that Doohan to me must be the mentally
toughest champion of all time. How many guys had their freaking legs sewed
together, under threat of amputation, and then come back to win
championships at the highest level? For all the talk about the legendary
Schwantz challenges, it was Doohan who gave Rainey fits twice in
championships and lost out by 10 points or so. Great as Rainey was, he did
not *dominate* and oh so clearly establish superiority. It was a tough era,
as Rainey's and Schwantz' exit from the sports attests to, and Doohan's
ability to outlast them and then go on to establish a clear era of supermacy
speaks for him (and indirectly also for his early rivals' legendary
quality).

Nothing indicates Rainey and Schwantz were superior to Doohan, they were
very equally matched, and Doohan beat Schwantz in his prime often enough.
They were all among the best riders to ever ride in MotoGP. Doohan's later
dominance did establish his clear superiority over the other riders (in the
entire world, by the way, I can't think of anyone who'd challenged him) at
the time that followed. Doohan is a legend in his own right, he had the
track record successfully competing against Rainey and Schwantz in 500, and
outlasted them to dominate afterwards.

He undoubtedly is.

No. A great in his own terms, ust as the other ones were. Who cares whether
Hailwood, Ago, Roberts, Lawson, Rainey, Doohan or others was the better
rider - they are all immortals of the sport.

It's not. I didn;t see many US riders who looked really ready to challenge
at the time, and as we have established before this was long before the
Spanish sponsor conspiracy could have had any influence on that. Chandler is
about the only one who came, looked hot, and then didn't get a chance to
progress further. But even he didn't exactly set the world on fire. There
was no anti-US conspiracy there, it's just that the well ran dry, and no
talents like Lawson or Rainey or Schwantz came along. And, without an ounce
of anti_US sentiment in my heart, I may note that I think we're still
waiting. Those guys are once in a decade talents, it just so happened they
came along at once. One can't expect a steady supply of them.

WSB has never excited me all that much. Ever. It provided a change in scene
at a time when Doohan was obliterating 500 opposition. That was what helped
it, but it was always second tier as far as I am concerned.

And yet, when a US rider is a support rider in a team you're quick to point
out how his results may well be explained by the lack of infrastructure and
support etc. Both Roberts and Gibernau were no-shows in 2002. But riders are
like everything else - they start, they're on the rise, they peak, then a
descent begins that may have the occasional swan song. Roberts' peaked
before Gibernau joined, his descent started when they were together, and not
one swan song has come out of him, unlike from other champions. That's what
is odd about Roberts. His teammate has tried harder and has been better.
Given the fact I don't think you can win a GP title without knowing to ride,
my personal conclusion is Roberts can ride, but has questionable desire
after his title. He's collecting a paycheck. It is an odd situation. I
somewhat question his ability to direct bike development, becaus it's not
like Suzuki doesn't know how to build bikes. I have a feeling if
Rossi-Burgess joined Suzuki next, we'd see quick improvement there as well.

Criville retired after 2 bad years where he finished in the top 10. Granted
he was HRC and the expectations are higher. But if Roberts didn't hold some
support he would not be in the team, or perhaps he negotiated an awesome
deal with Suzuki after winning the title, which is what I think. But after
so many years of questionable results, I don't think he'll be there much
longer. Not because he doesn't have talent, but because he doesn't show much
bite and desire. For an ex-world champion to consistently rank behind his
rookie colleague is somewhat of an anomaly, and it's odd it's never seemed
to have bothered Roberts.

I think he *was*, I don't necessarily think he still is. That's the
difference in my interpretation.

The thing here is that it is silly to portray Europe as a coallition that
always pulls on the same rope together. Europe's past is full of internal
competition, and that venerable tradition lives on. It's probably easier for
everybody to cheer for a US champion than for a French one, for instance...
This "Euro" theory simply does not hold any water, because
Spanish-Italian-French interests are very likely to neutralize each other.
Always have, and probably always will, when it comes to any politics.

I must note I am very glad to see you have toned down to statements to the
point where one can debate them constructively, though, and I thank you for
the effort.

I'd like to see statistics on the size of the motorcycle market. I can
remember reading somewhere that the US does represent a very sizable chunk
of Ducati revenue. 25% of total revenue, if I recall correctly. The problem
is not necessarily market size, but the MotoGP craziness and the
effectiveness of MotoGP as a demand generation tool. The US motorcycle
market doesn't seem to be much influenced by MotoGP success. Nor is the
tobacco market, even though despite rumors to the contrary the US still
generates about half the revenues for the big tobacco companies. Over $70B
in revenue in the USA. They simply don't *need* to overly promote it for
local consumption to be satisfactory. And if they promoted it, motrocycle
racing wouldn't be the vehicle, because it's not a huge sport here. Unlike
in Spain, where it comes second to soccer in popularity. Can you imagine
motorcycle racing rivaling the NBA, the NFL and baseball in the USA?

So this is not about Euro sponsors. It's about US sponsors that tailor the
European PR campaigns to local requirements, but don't feel compelled to
support the local motorcycle sport. Send your complaint letters locally.
Motorcycling is simply not a huge sport -and thus not a huge sponsorship
opportunity- in the USA, and to blame Europe for the lack of popularity of
motorcycle racing as a sport in the USA is paranoid. And wrong. You want to
force -for example- Spanish people to be *less* motorcycle racing crazy to
create parity? The USA problem is homegrown. Maybe Laguna Seca will be a
humble start.

....pablo

 

A good start, somewhat marred by the fact you proceed to claim the absolute
contrary when you say ...

A conclusion you arrive at after dismissing Doohan's injuries, but pointing
out Rainey's and Schwantz'. Your love of stats should lead you to conclude
that Doohan was at least as good as Schwantz in those years, and in fact was
breathing down Rainey's neck often. Schwantz' own title -which you use as a
stats tie-breaker between him and Doohan's success at that point- carries
the little blemish of Rainey not being able to finish the season due to a
career ending injury, and thus all Schwantz had to do was to carefully
finish races as opposed to really earning it in a fight to the finish.

Of course not. However they attest to the fact Doohan was a superior rider
and a very legitimate multi-champion. The fact he outlasted the other guys
in an era that spat out many riders can't be held against him. Granted
rainey was somewhat older, but Schwantz was basically the same age, only he
could not continue.

I didn't say superior. I merely say a great champion in his own right. Once
you're in that group, ranks don't really matter, as far as I am concerned.

I don't hold that view, so I can't be making it. I am calling them all great
champions, period.

Nor do I, nor do I know anyone that believes it.

Well, I agree with all you say there. Some of those riders got the
opportunity but screwed up all by themselves, though. Kocinski being a prime
example for a headcase that made things hard on himself despite probably
being the best rider at the time. Goberts' crazy antics and rumors about his
lack of professionality followed him very early on, thus it is probably not
by coincidence MotoGP rejected him.

Hayden and Hopkins are great talents, among the most promising in the sport
still.

Superbikes had their moment of glory, but it was because MotoGP became too
predictable. As much of a fierce competitor as Fogarty was, he did not look
like a once in a decade talent in MotoGP, either. To me it just shows that
unless you're a true phenomenon a la Rossi, the top riders are very-very
equally matched.

By that logic, we should write Edwards and Hayden off, too? It's not like
they set the universe on fire on that winnignest machine. Yes, Gibernau has
developed. And yet I can not recall ever making the point he's only second
to Rossi in talent. Because he is not.

I don't think it's as outlandish a notion. He probably negotiated a nice
contract after the title, and good for him. Of course it could be
discontinued, but then there are the other asepcts: he has shown ability in
the past, and quite honestly I can't say I could point out someone likely to
do much better on the Suzuki. Mladin probably wouldn't want to touch it with
a long pole. No one can win on the Suzuki, and no one is claiming that.

Well, the Europeanizing of the sport you decry is squarely caused by the
fact the Europe is interested in motorcycle racing, while the USA really
isn't. It's not a conspirative push (your point), it's a natural pull (my
point). We agree on the effect, we disagree on the nature of the cause.
Incidentally, it also happens that there typically is convergence of talent
with opportunity. The USA doesn't have the best basketball players in the
world because of some genetic trait, but rather because there's a huge
socioeconomic motivation for those who have the talent to exploit it to its
fullest, and thus the talent kitchen cooks in full shifts from very early
on. That doesn't happen with motorcycling in the USA as much, but of course
now that the sport has become a multi-million $ sport, it does happen in
Europe, especially Spain and Italy. The fact the talent is discovered early
and nourished to the max is simply because the $ are there. That's not the
case here in the USA these days. A kid that loks great riding a bike here is
seen as cute, not as a potential retirement agent for the entire family and
generations to come. And I sincerely do hope the sport does not become a
boring parade of Spanish and Italian riders, with the other occasional
European rider thrown in, though the way things naturally flow in market
economy right now it may be geared that way naturally. Someone better manage
that, because it would be very boring.

....pablo

 

Everyone in the NBA was a superstar in high school. But I miss Garry McCoy...

Sad but true...

I think thst 50% of all motos in the US are registered in CA.

 

At which point we get back to the problems of Speed TV. With the sheer
number of cable and satellite channels in the USA, it surprises me that
there is only a single channel showing any motor racing. And within that
motorcycle racing is only one of many sports shown. Compare this with
Eurosport, Motors TV, Men and Motors, Sky Sports, Extreme Sports, BBC
and Channel 4 plus several other national channels in Europe all of
which show various motor cycle sports.

There's no shortage of content out there both live and taped. What's
needed is somebody to step up and make it happen. Perhaps somebody
should suggest it to Michael Jordan. Or one of the high profile TV
personalities who are into motorcycles like Letterman.

 

I remember two riders pushing Doohan hard, Beattie and then Criville.
And right at the end, Biaggi. Like now, there were then a succession of
riders who had the occasional good weekend which is mostly the ones you
mention but also Barros.

Maybe, maybe not. And we'll have to see what effect Paul Denning has on
the team. Maybe it's misplaced and not supported by the statistics but
there's a definite perception that when he stays on the bike Hopkins is
consistently *trying* harder than Roberts. And that Roberts lacks
motivation and has just plain given up one too many times. And these
perceptions are not just from people on this newsgroup but among the
commentators as well.

 

Leno! Not frat-boy Dave!

 

Let's say that again: "They finally are on an even playing field, that alone
favors the 4's"

Your absolutly right about that except that all sorts of engine limitations
are allways there to make racing more equal among different type of engine
constructions and designs.
It's a well known fact that with todays technology you can't get as much
revs (read power) out of a twin as a four at that size.

Some make such a fuzz about twins in WSB, but why don't you make just as
much stir about practically all motor racing in the world? Why is it we
can't use fours in 250, twins in 125, V12 in F1, V8 in Rally, turbos,
superchargers, nitro.....................? Why do we have weight penalties
and all sorts of restictors.......

The organizations limit the options and make lots of restrictions to make
racing more equal. Todays rule in WSB is an invitation to the japanese to
come back and a message to Ducati that they better hurry up with their
Desmsedechi or what ever the name is. With todays rules there are no room
for twins, it's history. I kind of think that's a pitty, but realize that
it's due to the bad handling the later years and now Ducati pay for the
SBK-organization stupidity.

Let's just agree that engine size isn't the only factor to calculate when
you want power, ok?

I have no problems to see that Italian and Spanish riders has an advantage
but come on!
Where do you find the: fans --> sponsors --> riders --> fans -->
Is there any thing more to it?
That's not the same as to say other have no chance or that rules are adopted
to favor Europeans. There might be organizational changes to make the sport
more popular but that will just as often work agains Europe as they have a
big market here allready. What they want is to widen the sport, and make it
more popular in other continents.

What are we arguing about. All I'm saying is that that the details of that
deal is to dirty to see the daylight. I think the deal is hopeless, but to
assume it's done most of all to help Ducati is too much or that it where
done to help Europeans is way over. It was about greed, big deal.

If we're talking about the Pirelli deal sure its dirty, but that does not
make it all one big EuroConspiracy, does it?
The Pirelli deal is about greed and was probably only possible because it
was made up between two Italian parties.

/MBE

 

As a matter of fact you did. You might find out one day, it's about
projection.

Quite a medicore rider in other words, ok.

Are we on the same news group?

What amazes me is how static things are in you're world. Roberts, the champ
and allways must be. Gibernau podiumless and advance only because he has a
better bike.....
Roberts was good, in his chapionship year, not today. Gibernau was not good
in 2002, but are geting better.

Maybe tehcnically but that was a long time ago. I can understand that years
with uncompetetive material wear him down but that's also somthing he make
very clear for everone watching.

They never had a competetive bike, that's why they gave up. The kits were
there allready when it rolled out the factory.

It favoured Twins, not Ducati.

Good question. Probably a slight nationalism, at the same time, why did't
the factories do something about it. Honda did, but pulled out when the
interest dropped and the Pirellis arrived.

Did they?

In BSB????? (BTW I hate multiple qustion signs)
That's where I by no means are able to follow you. The Brits don't care jack
ass about a pasta company. For sure they would like to favor Triumph but
that's about it.

I give up.

Good we can agree on some tings.

I'll give you one ting. The focus of GP is on Europe. But then again where
is the focus on what's the name "World Basket ball Series"?
GP has it focus here due to the number of fans and thir comersial potential.
That is quite obvious and undiniable. It's just when you pack it all
together with dirty deals, mixing company greed with the europanization you
stretch it way to far. And you do kind look a bit paranoid making to many
situataions into a "Europe" thing. The European counties are as much unified
as US with Mexico and Brazil when it come to sports.

/MBE

 

How did that deal help Ducati? Leaving the series uninteresting and at the
same time making other rule changes regarding the 1000cc fours rusulting in
a less competetive Ducati?
Now thats a good conspiracy ;-)

/MBE

 

Here in NZ we must be one of the if not the only country that gets to
see live Moto GP (including 125 and 250) free to air. It use to be on
pay TV along with Superbikes but Sky said MotoGP was too expensive and
dropped it so one of the free to air channels picked it up and showed
all the racing last year and will show all of it this year, after that
no word. No ads during the races either.
The F1 GP is also on another free to air channel.

Paul

 

Yes, lots.

What you say in later posts to correct your own statments in the first one
is really not relevant to what could and should be read between the lines of
that first post.

I see what you post later and see the attempt to sweeten the pill but
anyway.

Funny you think I'm German :-D

No I don't think that was what happened. If you do it's ok by me
However I think Kato's death was a turning point for Sete. At least one of
them.

But that was still a choise made by the other factories.

Sorry, thougt it was just three or something championships. Anyway, didn't
that domination come much later than in WSB?

And because Foggy won on Ducati in WSB they (BSB) had to use the same rules
as WSB?
The fact is that most national SB clases follow WSB to ease the posibility
for wild cards, and of course they want to play the illution that they are
racing the same equipment as in WSB, thats good for the spectator crowds.

He he, of cource it is a world championship but as in any sport I can think
of the most events, the money, the officials, every ting there is more of in
the coutries that have the most fans, the tradition, the most performers.

/MBE

 

While the antics of looking up to heaven (whether to Bulto SrSr or Kato is
anyone's guess) got a bit much, on top of the support focus that resulted
from it I would assume the death of a teammate truly tests one's
determination, and one probably comes back with more emotional strength and
focus. It was turning point, and I think it was for more reasons that team
politics and bike stuff. Gibernau seemed to have more of an intensity.
Still, what a way...

Indeed. When the biggest fan base is somewhere, it's no coincidence the
world championships converge to those places. US baseball is the top series
world wide, and no one doubts it attracts the most talent. The fact it
happens where it has its natural geographical audience does not put a
question mark on its quality.

This newgroup and other US focused motorcycle discussion groups alone show
the difference. Just for kicks, subscribe to es.charla.moteros, a Spanish
moto newsgroup, and compare the traffic there to English speaking motorcycle
groups...

....pablo

 

What are the five best years in a Norwegian's life?

The years spent in first grade.

 

The Danish are the Dutch of Scandinavia
The Swedish are the Germans of Scandinavia
And the Norwegians are the...

....Norwegians of Scandinavia.

 

Jamaica?
No, she went of her own accord.
Tada!

 

Not because they were lifetime buddies, but nevertheless having a teammate
die is something that drives the risks of the sport home big time, and tests
one's desire. I can imagine a shock effect, not out of heartfelt grief, but
a somewhat more selfish and introspective one.

Don't be naive. Baseball players are among the best paid athletes in the
world. That does create a big pull. Those who have the talent will do their
damndest to hone their skill to the max and earn the price from very early
on.

The hell it can't, it is a top rated sport in Spain, while it's not in the
USA. Like it or not, the analogy is quite valid.

....pablo