Is anyone watching ITV1?

AOL

 

Yes but I used the word stereotypical - there are a range of "styles" or
groups like muscle marys, very camp people, skinheads, etc etc. There is
plenty of pressure from the gay "lifestyle" press to conform. Believe
me - fat people are not treated with wide welcoming arms in *some* bars.

I can tell - the first time I picked someone up was simply by looking at
them. They looked back. That was it - we both knew we were gay. I would
never claim to be 100% accurate hence the comment above.

Erm I think the gay thing is a little different - you learn to recognise
your "own kind" to some extent. I have been called very perceptive by an
HR trainer - I have to really decide to use the skill but I can get to
the underlying problem that someone may be having very quickly. I did it
on a management training course (where the trainer saw it in action) and
I think people were shocked to be questioned quite so "accurately" when
they had something completely to the contrary to try to divert attention
away from themselves. That "skill" may make a difference.

 

Hmmmm... But surely the people who choose to live the 'lifestyle' and
dress in a particular way (like the ones you mention) are the minority?
I mean to say that biking is a lifestyle choice for some, and you can
spot them in their cut down denims, patches etc even when they aren't
on a bike, but most bikers (or gays) are just ordinary people earning a
living and wearing 'ordinary' clothes.

Just where I work (in a place with about 4000 employees) some of them
must be gay. But the only person that I thought probably was (due to
extreme campness) isn't - he's just a bit camp!

That's interesting - in terms of they'd ask you^W a larger person to
leave? I mean I can think of hetro places where I would spectacularly
fail to pull (not many places though I expect he says hopefully) but I
doubt I'd get beaten up or asked to leave.

I think that skill is amazing - almost like witchcraft. I can't even
tell if someone likes me or not - sexually or otherwise.

How? What are the clues? Obviously, if someone sidles over and gives
you a bunch of flowers or puts their hand down your trousers, there's a
bit of a clue, but otherwise what gives it away?

I would think it does. But is the skill there because you are gay, or
is it something you would have anyway? This is all stuff I am shit at
- at work in the people management side of my work, I really have to
try hard to understand people and I don't think I am any good at it as
people are just so bloody complex.

 

go back and google - I did post the scores.

 

Well yes but there are plenty of them about.

I understand the analogy but in some odd way it is different to being
able to spot someone laden with grease, long hair and a denim jacket.

You just get the "oh he obviously doesn't go the gym like a proper gay
person does" look. Thankfully those of us in the larger, hairier section
of the populace have our own fans and even our own terminology - bears.
I accept this is just as bad a stereotype as the rest but at least there
is not total rejection.

I'm not sure I believe the last comment. You seem to be implying that
you have no skills when it comes to interpreting non verbal
communication. I don't think I have ever heard of that except, of
course, for blind people.

Now where did I leave the pointy hat and broomstick?

The way they look at you, their general demeanour and physique, dress
sense and style. Not all of these work all of the time. One little
"trick" is that if you see walk past someone you like and you turn your
head round to look at them as they walk in the opposite direction and
they are looking at you within a 5 second time span then you've almost
certainly pulled. I have to say that it has worked for me. Probably
works the same for straight people too.

[perceptive]

Don't know - you're heading into all sorts of complex areas about nature
/ nurture etc which I don't claim to understand at all. I have to
really work at the "scary perceptive" bit but it is quite a powerful
trait to have. You have to be very careful how you use it or else you
get weird reactions.

Really? - I wouldn't say I was very good at it but I just try to keep
things clear, simple and to try to listen and then understand what is
being said. The hardest bit is the listening.

 

Not sure I can publish a list! The real issue here is social / sexual
skills - if you don't do the teenage party, teenage sexual fumbling /
sex, crap chat up routines, first "boyfriend / girlfriend" thing then it
just gets very hard later on because your skill level is still
pre-teenage. I accept some of the clumsiness won't be there because the
rest of life will have knocked those rough edges off. I have never
chatted someone up - what little success I've had has been through other
ways of pulling people mostly non verbal look across a room stuff. I
appreciate not everyone can do that trick but somehow I can.

You're probably right - I just don't do "simple". Complexity is far more
fun and much easier to justify.

If I think about things I do it for too long and then get stuck.

Oh dear - I'm crap at doing that too. I don't do lies and bullshit -
what you see is what you get. Therefore I can be a bit difficult to get
to know in the early stages until people get past the outer layers.

Oh it certainly does make sense. Your world view is turned upside down.
You aren't the majority "normal" bit of the population you are in a
minority of "abnormal" people. Previous certainties disappear.

I did the "tell everyone" bit very quickly. I've never really engaged in
the gay scene which has restricted me from building new friendships.
Plus I'm overly individualistic and insular which means for most of the
time I survive but it gets lonely at times. Thus there is no network of
people to push me forward or try to new experiences with. This is
largely why I have stopped. Oh and what friends I have had seem to have
fallen by the wayside because I am appalling at maintaining friendships
- partly the teenage "missing" skills thing, partly my insular approach,
partly the stress thing below.

I think some of the deep rooted problems are also emerging which is
proving a bit of a struggle too. Having read some simple advice from
work and elsewhere about stress and depression I can tick too many of
the boxes on the pages.

You see I'm fabulous at analysis and diagnosis!

Oh my own.

[stubborn and determined]

Oh you are very wrong - <evil manic laugh>

Actually you aren't but it was worth a try.

You sound as if you fully trust your opinions most of the time. You've
more than happy to share them

You got the last bit right - that was certainly what it took.

Well yes that sounds like Newcastle on a Friday and Saturday night. On
one level I can see where the culture all comes from but on another it
is a complete laugh. I can recall seeing a bloke wandering round
Blackett St in a short sleeved shirt, with this Embassy Regal cigarettes
folded into the cuff half up his arm, in the middle of a snow storm. The
women had skirts so short I think they were a confusion with a string
bikini. That image always makes me smile - completely bloody stupid and
yet completely in tune with the Newcastle way to have a good time.

It was a pretty much standardised form of abuse as it is everywhere from
my experience / knowledge.

[BONE]

No but I like them.

I don't know either but if either of us did know how it worked we'd know
the secret of how to live life successfully and thus would be very rich
indeed.

 

Probably - in cities and large towns I suppose. Not so many in these
'ere rural parts. /(only gay in the village joke to be added later)/.

Heh... I suppose so, I was just analogy-ising the relatively small
numbers of people who openly proclaim their lifestyle/hobby/sexuality
via the way they dress/look.

Not everyone has my universal appeal ;-)

I like to think (prolly misguided) that I can read people, but I find
it tremenbdously difficult - and it's only in the last ten years that
I've come to realise that people don't all think and feel like I do.
Non-verbal comms are a mystery to me - I can tell if they are smiling
or crying that they are happy or sad, but bored? A bit peeved? Nah...

Suits you sir... Just don't buy a used broomstick of Timo.

You'll have to run a masterclass.

Yup - I tend to sit and listen and try to understand their feelings -
and then ask them what they are really saying/feeling - it's no good
guessing!

 

perhaps you need to hang out with gay scientists.

 

Paul Corfield wrote:

Yeah, there's one part of town that has a few bars with rainbow flags
outside. Right next to the Life Centre. Is that all it takes to qualify
as having a gay scene? Or is there more to it, and I haven't been paying
attention?

Aye, a rival quiz team at what used to be my local. Definitely "smarter
than the average bear" (*groan*). Didn't they get on telly once, which
is how they came to be mentioned on here?

 

I hate to say that I first read that as "dialysis" and imagined Paul
hanging out with someone on a kidney machine.

Oddly, re the gay scene mentioned in other postings, from the little
I've seen of it, folk who indulge in said scene seem to have a bloody
finer time than most heteros I can think of.

Now maybe that's because they're less inhibited, or because they're all
part of the same club, as it were, I dunno. And I'm probably talking
bullshit anyway.

 

Paul Corfield says...
Yeah, it /can/ be as simple as that. But when you don't know where
to start, or what you want, or how to do it, or you're too scared,
or too insecure, it's more difficult to decide what that first step
is, never mind actualy managing to take it.

True enough. Also if you've not done these things your confidence is
going to be lower, fear of rejection may well play a part here, too.
It also depends on the type of person you are. As you said below,
you're individulistic and insular, a more gregarious out going
person may have less dificulty in taking part and getting to know
others.

I can certainly say that about myself. I am a private person and I
don't do crowds or large groups well, party due to this I didn't do
much in the way of teenage mixing. The lack of this then persisted
into my adult life, resulting in my becoming more insular and
withdrawn. It's a cycle and it's incredably difficult to break, I
have made some progress, but it is damn hard and I sometimes wonder
if it's worth it and if it's what I want, but I think it is.

I don't think I've ever chatted someone up, I've had some sucess
with non-verbal but I generally tend to avoid people.

Very true. It's easier to justify and it's easier to continue in old
patterns. It takes a great effort of will to change direction, even
when it is a small change, but it is easier to sustain. The energy
we invest in continuing along old paths, telling ourselves that it
is better that way, that it is a way to minimise hurt, is far
greater than the energy we need to sustain the change, once we make
it. It also results in a less conflicted self, when we are able to
recognise what it is we want, and make the changes to move towards
it, we move towards a different self. One which is happier and
invests less energy attempting to protect ourselves from something
which is not really a treat.

I know how that goes. I've got to the point of thinking about,
realising that I'm probably over anyalsing the situation and
deciding to find out by doing it. It often doesn't happen, and I
continue to think about it, but sometimes it does, and it gets
easier each time.

But you don't have to do lies and bullshit. You don't have to open
your heart to every person you talk to, but be what you want to be,
if someone likes that then good. If they don't, then you'll not be
likely to form a relationship with them anyway. The idea of putting
what is "you" on show in that way is, frankly, terrifying (to me at
least). But so what if they reject that? Easy to say, harder to
actually realise, though. But the essential point is that just
because someone rejects you that does not mean that you are any less
worthwhile. Saying it is easy, actually believing it is much harder.

The majority of normal people is simply made up of a group of
abnormal ones. They are just abnormal in a different way to you.

Yes, I know how that goes. In the last year or so I have allowed
myself to try some new things, after prompting by a couple of people
from work. I rather surprised myself when I found that I did enjoy
them, mostly. I'm lucky in that LN is good in that area and
encourages me to do things, so I am making some progress. But the
decision to want to has to come from within, not doing things in an
attempt to make others happy.

Yes, this also sounds very familliar. Having left my previous work
place three months ago, I am making an effort to stay in touch with
people I liked, and it is definately a case of making an effort.
There is only one person who I have any contact with (outside my
family, which I minimise contact with as much as possible) that has
known me for more than a couple of years. Partly for the reasons you
outline above.

Having confidence in your own opinion and self worth is far from
easy. I think anyone with any capacity for introspection and thought
will doubt them from time to time. However, when starting from a
point where you have no confidence in either it is very difficult to
do. Defining yourself by others view of you, or what they perceive
as you is far easier, but far less useful.

She's not the only one.

 

Making up for lost time

<waves> I wasn't allowed to do all the above - simple things 'normal'
people take for granted I didn't have. And then you end up in a world
that seems to be operating a completely different set of general
rules. Everyone has different view points but there seems to be a bell
curve effect in their ranges, I always seemed to be operating on the
edge of what was considered 'normal', only I didn't realise it. As a
young woman it makes you very open to predators.

Have you read any Maslow? We did a tiny bit on his theories in O level
biology and I'd heard odds and ends mentioned by people over the
years, so I started looking further into it and had a *ding* moment -
I'd never looked at the world in that way before, so I hadn't even
thought about basic needs because I was taught God fulfilled all
needs. And that stayed lurking in the back of my mind for ages.

I don't agree with all of his stuff and his methodology is a bit wonky
but it is interesting. I realised most people knew this stuff without
having to be told by a book and I didn't. All that 'common sense'
wasn't very common. I was looking at his articles on peak experience
research as part of my interest in religion/myth/magic generally and
found all his other stuff.

http://www.ship.edu/~cgboeree/maslow.html

There's a brief biography, summary and criticism on there that gives
an over view.

You don't have to do lies and bullshit. And with complexity your
perspective is shifting and knowledge changing. So you take up a
different position and no longer believe the first - does that make
the first a lie? Or is it still valid? Again I dunno. And most of the
time I'm too busy eating, sleeping, keeping a roof over my head and
fulfilling other basic needs to think about it.

And then the question above comes in? Were you living a lie and what
effect has that had? Dunno.

snip

I'm still learning how to analyse and diagnose in a lot of ways.
Although my EQ is high all the practical everyday things take a lot of
effort for me, I keep getting distracted by shiny pretty, bouncy music
things. They're more fun.

Blimey no, I'm winging it. I can over analyse for hours and end up
doing nothing with the best of them. Or I can trust my opinions, know
I'm absolutely sure of what is the right thing for myself and my
family and then do **** all about it. I just pack a lot into the tiny
moments of clarity - peak experiences don't have to be religious.

I'm very difficult to STFU when I get going. It is both a source of
glee and a curse <g> I do sometimes attempt to keep various ideas and
themes in suitable forums (I'd not post in character plot based role
playing anywhere but where it belongs you'll be pleased to hear) but
not always.

snip

yep, sounds similar - snow on the ground.

It makes me shiver.

snip

I'd like a tiny one somewhere for me, not for display, but I'd change
my mind about what I wanted in the future and wish I hadn't had it
done I'm sure.

Why rich? In a sort of here buy my elixier of happiness way? Isn't
that what religions do? And religious charities - fulfilment of basic
needs with a price tag? <runs away grinning>

 

Oh **** no. I ignore all that 'hello', 'ok', 'other glossy magazine I
don't read' stuff. I've got better things to do with my reading time
than look at pretty pictures of artificial, advertising led creations
to feed the market for plastic crap.

<snip more ranting/philosophical bollocks>

There are other role models they can choose.

I've no doubt. I'm looking forward to it.

 

You're almost as much of a social hermit as I am!

BTW, I checked and haven't got an allen key the right size.

 

Ginge says...

Possibly more, as you go out with colleagues and I refuse to. Having
said that, I do out to work whilst you work from home. Probably
about the same, I suppose.

It is something that I am working at, but progress is slow,
frustrating and sometimes painful. I think it's worth it, though.

Thanks, I dropped the forks out with the front wheel still in, so
it's not a problem. I'll get Herself to drop the lot into the bike
shop and they can do the seal, new tyre, new fork oil bolt it back
together and I'll chuck it back in all joined up.

Having exposed beams in the garage to tie things to is cool.

 

Give me a yell if you want to get out into Derby one weeknight, or
heaven forbid do something vaguely sport related. I've decided I need
to start getting fit again, whilst cutting down on booze, I can't decide
what that will actually be yet though.

 

Ginge says...

Yeah, I will. I fancy visiting a few of the Derby pubs.

As regards sport, well, I have a religious objection to sport. I'm
planning on starting training again in a few months, the physio has
given me the all clear. A shed load of stretching excersises to do
and building back up to fitness then I should be training again. But
a sport! I can't think of a sport which appeals even slightly.

 

Bear wrote

Foiled again. Curse you sir.

 

[snip]

I'll just say *ding* to what you said as there up here as well as down
there as there was nothing to disagree with from where I stand.

So how did you find courage to hook up with ukrm people and the good
Lady Nina then?

You seem to be learning the "take little steps" lesson though.

This is all very true. I think part of my problem is that I don't see
what others see. I am notoriously "hard" on myself and thus don't see
the good bits or skills that others see. Thus I am surprised that people
find me attractive as a person which just adds to my general reluctance.

Fair comment.

I used to have one or two people who would do that but I also had some
who were as reluctant as I was to do new stuff. The other odd aspect
I've found is that being the boss at work means that stuff that people
in the team do socially I don't get invited to. Even silly things like
people going out for lunch together.

A whole load of people have simply given up as the maintenance task was
all one sided. I don't blame people for their reaction. I see you have
the "family" issue too.

Ooh times two.

 

http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,,1389089,00.html

(bottom of the page - "The queer mile")