If you don't want ID cards to be introduced

I think you're being short-sighted if you think that capitalism requires
democracy or if you fail to see the relationship betwen money and power.

Yes, but how to do you fight the real crimes if you don't have the power to
speak? Our civil liberties grant us the right to say that what is being
done by our government is wrong, they grant us the right to protest and
demonstrate, they give us protections when speaking out that can not be
bought or bypassed.

If you think the government and big business are committing bigger crimes
than taking away our civil liberties then fine, but we need our civil
liberties to raise a voice against these things.

Even if that is true, and I don't accept that it is, is it a reason not to
try to fight the good fight? Are we supposed to roll over and say that big
business has won so we shoul just accept their will?

Out of interest though, if business makes all of the decisions how come
we've got legally mandated maximum hours, a minimum wage, employment rights,
environmental laws, how come children aren't being forced to work in
factories or pregnant women being sent down the mines?

I do, you probably noticed.

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The speccy Geordie twat.

 

We succeeded against the government of the day over the poll tax, when
some similar issues were involved.

Switch from the rates as a property based tax to a poll tax as a personal
tax involved the disclosure of the names of all occupants of all houses,
owned or rented. A massive infringement of civil liberty and the beginning
of the big brother state in the uk. Rapidly followed by the centralisation
of control of the police force during the miners strike, and the public
order act.

The biggest demo ever in the uk didn't change Tony's mindset over the war,
but the gen publics disgust had some effect in the polls. Just not enough.

Maybe we should find out who's tendering for the computer system to run
the id card scheme, and threaten to boycott their products. We have more
power as (non)consumers than we do as voters, that's for sure.

 

Hey, let's not be too hasty, eh?

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The speccy Geordie twat.

 

Nonono, I'm not saying cameras are a solution that I agree with. I'm saying
that we helped open the door to let them in. We can say "Get rid of your
money magnet cameras you cunts" and they say "Too many of you crash, we're
saving lives" and almost everyone who's ever been pissed off that you've
filtered through the Monday morning traffic jam BELIEVES it.

Regardless of that, the point is no one thinks they're at fault. The
majority of posts of bins are someone else's fault. Idiots reading
newspapers walking out in front of stationary buses, etc.

 

Sorry feller that was a bit shitty, but you *did* seem to go along with
Platy's horror vision of the future with ID cards, as if that is the way
it's going to be, a little too easily. Somehow this horror has been avoided
in other European countries that have had ID cards for years.

My g/f says that although she would get fined if she was found to be without
her ID card (about a tenner) on the whole no one has a problem with it.
There's almost no card fraud (despite the crime rate in the Czech Republic).
In effect it's no different to carrying your license around except it has a
few more details and there's a fine for not carrying it.

Regardless, I'm not advocating it. I'm just saying it doesn't warrant being
the prime issue of importance IMO.

 

Ahaaa!

 

I'm sure most right-minded people did feel somewhat perturbed about the war,
or at least feel like there were some unanswered questions. The fact that
the war is "over" doesn't diminish the need for closure though, to borrow
AndrewR's words, if they can get away with that, then the next government
will as well. IMO it's a new precedent in unaccountability. I feel it's a
shame that we've given up on it, Blair will be out and a new exercise book
will be started and the line will be firmly drawn under it.

 

I don't see what I said that would make you say that so..."whatever".

Well, other countries have managed to successfully express their concerns
and change their situation without those luxuries. But somehow now we've got
to the point where ID cards are going to prevent us from even speaking out
in your scenario. How far are you going to take this? When they brought in
the seat belt law did you want to post about being imprisoned against your
will in a wheeled metal cage?

Now, you're being silly.

 

Yeah ok. But I would probably want to ask similar questions about the war.
And I'm thinking ID cards are going to sightly less expensive to administer
than the war was/is.

No I didn't. But with the stop and search powers they have at the moment,
and the kind of people that are attracted to the job, that will go on
regardless. Maybe ID cards will actually make it lessen, who knows?

Well they have tried to justify it with outlandish scare tactics. An illegal
war resulting in crowd control for whatever they want to put through.

I'm still stuck on Iraq actually, if you haven't picked that up yet. How
Blair gets away with repeating his non-lies is frankly astonishing. There
doesn't even seem enough pressure to make him hit the escape pod. Also, the
environment, and cheaper DVDs.

 

I actually know someone who's working on it (friend of my father's). A very
bright bloke indeed- about everything, not just his field-and I asked him
what he thought the ramifications were. He gave me a look of bemusment as if
it was a question that he had been asked a million times and said more about
the person asking the question than anything else.

 

The fact that Blair's about to invest a shedload in a new nuclear
deterrent to replace trident, and that the UK and US are flying in the
face of the UN with the building of a uranium enrichment plant, depsite
their stance with so many nations attempting to do the same thing.

Then let's look at nuclear power stations, it would seem even a Labour
Prime Minister can follow in Thatcher's footsteps.

Here's one page with a couple of newspaper articles on it, but have a
google for yourself too...

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/050305E.shtml#1

 

That's the whole point. Legislate to make money based on the lowest common
denominator. You know it makes sense. Do tackle the problem head on, just
profit from it. Whether its the buzz words like H&S, political
correctness, or whatever a justification WILL be found to get what they
want. We are only pawns, subjects of the crown, here to create revenue for
her government to spend on themselves (40% Salary increase IIRC) and
anything President Blair feels fit without even any consultation these
days.

Regardless of how a bin is attempted, it's still a nanny state
controlled by lawyers that we live in.

 

I don't disagree.

And it's probably going to get a lot worse.

I can see the future: Corporations will run the world. People will simply be
a heard of cash cows, kept happy with sedative-type drugs and some brutal
sport as an outlet for any frustration. The sport will take place in that
most uncompromising of areanas- a ring. In this ring a tubby northerner will
be made to ride around and around until he gets his knee down while the
audience throw buns and pies at him and shout insults.

 

It would have been quicker if you'd waited until you got bored and fucked
off for a pint.

 

May be since it's *your* construction of what the look on his face meant it
says more about *your* attitude to the issue than anyone elses.

Maybe the look on his face really meant

"I'm getting sodding well paid and I'm not doing anything illegal so why
should I give a shit about the implications for civil liberty"

But then only he knows really.

 

Ever seen 'Rollerball'?

Ah, as you were

 

lol

No *You* are.

 

I am what?

 

Why have them?

 

Funny how the proponents never seem to come up with decent examples of
why we *should* have them. "it'll counter terrorism", "if you've got
nothing to hide, you've nothing to fear", etc.

Total bollocks. They won't achieve a fucking thing.