If you don't want ID cards to be introduced

Something that has value. A house, for example.

No it's not.

That is not the same as having no identity. Unless you really think that
citizenship and identity are interchangeable.

And they'd let you in with an ID card? No. They *might* let you in with an
entitlement card though.

Give me an example

Like I answered last time you asked, about 5 minutes. More to do with the
number of figures that I had to find and enter. How would an ID card help
this?

Ah there is truth in that, about the salaries. But I already have a unique
ID for paying my tax.

Which are?

You raised the case of a Nigerian scammer, claiming that (I think) you would
not trust him without and ID card. I raised the point that
a) His ID is not relevant to the operation of the scam
b) If he really wanted an ID card, then I'm damn sure he could get one.

How do you mean?

So introduce better security for access. Again, you're not actually talking
about proving ID, you are now talking about access control. A different
type of proof of entitlement.

Plus the benefit that you've described is not (IMO) sufficient to outweigh
the cost. We're talking about saving 3 minutes once a year of my life.
Plus, I'd really need to understand how your *ID* card makes the process so
much faster, and that the method could not be duplicated any other way.

That's fine, I have no objections if you want to use them. What I *do*
object to is being forced to use them, and probably pay for them, when, as
far as I can tell, there is no benefit to me.

I don't think that I have any ID documents at the moment. I have several
proofs of entitlement which some people chose to accept as forms of ID. My
passport, my diving licence, but as to my National Health card, I'd have to
ask the wife where it is.

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As does everyone else who pays tax & ni

Until quite recently the whole building industry was and maybe still
is rife with tax and ni evasion. I knew of companies hiring casual
labour that used to give them the day off to sign on once a fortnight.

No he's avoided income tax and ni and now wants to be kept at everyone
else's expense. It's hard enough for those who contributed to have
assistance and medical care without supporting those who actively
evaded it

 

I don't see how the speed of filling in the forms can be any quicker,
however the use of a Smart Card to (presumably) sign some data,
authenticate you and ensure data integrity is nice. However, it doesn't
actually prove identity, as someone else could have the card and know
the PIN, or even have been given the PIN.

Then you get into situations where the onus is on the person to keep
their PIN secret, but someone people just may not care.

I guess it depends on the systems your using and if you/they really want
access control to be about proving your ID. Passwords are shite for
this because they can be shared, but that may be of benefit to someone
that specifically wants to share their access.

There is talk among the UK banks about introducing one time passwords
for all online access, which would be generated by the customer using a
"credit card sized calculator". I assume that each bank will have it's
own, so if you have multiple bank accounts, or credit cards, you will
then have to carry not only the credit and debits cards, but the
calculators for each as well. That'll be fun. In this instance, I can
see the benefit of a single smart card with X.509 cert, used by all
banks & credit card companies for *access control*.

Domenec, how long are your ID cards valid for? Presumably they make use
of the expiry date within the X.509 certificate.

 

[snip]

Ok, you already have a unique tax id (same as in Spain, then), and the
problem seems to be having a phisical card, innit? Then, you say,
having that ID printed on a phisical card is costly, correct? Well,
it's up to the Brit tax payer to decide whether they should cut costs
or not, and I ain't one of them. BTW, I'd start cutting a cost known as
Royals.

I thought the problem was having a ID number, not the printed copy.

 

They're perfectly happy to be numbered and controlled from birth, they
just don't want to have a piece of card that reminds them of the fact
all the time.

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Switters wrote

Like they keep saying - BIOMETRICS. The technology is there and ready,
you *can* have a as-secure-and-personal-as-it-gets form of ID today. It
only needs the will and the cash to implement it, nothing else.

 

Chip them and tattoo a number onto the arm at birth

Hog

 

Actually, "don't want to be compelled to carry and produce such a card
for activites which currentyl don't require proof of identity".

 

Well, technically I have two, but I'm 'complicated'

Not as such, no

My biggest issue with the ID cards that are proposed here is that they will
have no effect on issues that ther are being touted to resolve. In that
sense, spending billions is pointless. If someone could come up with a
tangible benefit (which even you, living with them) has failed to do, I
would probably be far more receptive

Each to their own. I think the general consensus is that the Royal family
actually make money for the country if you include a certain amount of
tourists that come over to see the queen. How accurate that info is, I'd
not like to comment on.

No, I happily recognise that many organisations wish to assign me a UID for
management purposes, and have no real issues with that. What I do have a
major issue with is to be required to have (and pay for and eventually
carry at all times) a document to 'prove' my ID. Apart from anything else
I can't envisage any circumstances where I *should* be required to rpove my
ID *at once*. Interestingly, neither have any of those in favour of the
cards, that I have spoken to at least.
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More to do with not wanting to live in any place where I can be required to
prove my identity immediately, and on demand, and be criminalised should I
not have the card with which to do it, IYSWIM.
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Fingerprint scanners can be fooled. Don't know about iris scanners, but
hell, pop their eyeballs out and use them instead.

 

Switters ha escrito:

Correct, my IDcat [1] from CatCert [2] authority is valid for some
three years, limited by the X.509 expiry date. In a year and a half
I'll have to know how to renew it.

[1] http://www.idcat.net (Catalan)
[2] http://www.catcert.net (Catalan)

 

steve auvache ha escrito:

Er, there was a funny slashdot.org story abou a teacher who faked a
copy of his finger with [Spanish] gelatina [/Spanish] and passed away
all the tests of fingerprints detectors.

BTW, biometrics may tell who you are, but can not store additional
information as digital certificates and smart cards do.

 

As a guess, I'll go for 'gelatine'.

 

Not sure if this is a Ginge, but here goes:
http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm200304/cmselect/cmhaff/130/13006.htm


John

 

I have worked with a biometrics company. They have their place, but when it
all boils down the data is simply data - digital information slapped onto a
bit of plastic. Thus it can be forged. The danger is that the ID cards
will give an entirely false sense of security. Furthermore, cloned cards
will land the innocent in far more trouble than merely having dosh stolen
from their accounts with a cloned bank card. Compare with the damage done
by duff DNA. It'll be 'bang to rights, sonny. You're going daaaaaaahn,'
and innocent folk being extradited because 'the biometrics never lie'. OH
YES THEY FUCKING DO.

 

Mark wrote

Yes it is. It may not yet be mature but it is here and developing and
it is ready for use right now and it gets better at its job by the
minute. Arguments based up on the unsuitability of the technology are
simply too old fashioned and out of date to hold water.

 

Are you denying the above figures?
If it is getting better then it is not good enough now.

Anyway, who needs technology? I'm sure that HMSO has millions of ID
cards left over from 1952.

 

Could be a bugger trying to find one that matches your fingerprints
though.

 

Eiron wrote

No but those figures were collected yesterday for a study designed the
day before to be carried out on machinery built the day before that from
technology made the day before that from a design first thought up 20
years ago. It is simply not fucking relevant, technology has moved on
and keeps moving.

It was not good enough yesterday, now is a different matter entirely.

The bastards who want to control our lives is who.