I went to church on Sunday

"Phil Launchbury"

And what is it used for in Sociology, which is not a description of
a statistical relationship?

 

Good move. I've had to put Phil in a short-term kf to avoid escalating
it further.

 

Therefore god's creation is flawed, and he is neither omnipotent nor
omniscient. Either that or he was just taking the piss. Or doesn't
exist in the first place.

Maybe I did hit my head after all...

 

One of the best. Makes me weep every time. Like a good Bucks Fizz
song.

 

It depends. You see there are these things called 'literal'
translations (of which I have one - called The Triglott). It contains
the original Greek and Hebrew texts and under each word is its direct
English equivalent. You can also look up said Greek/Hebrew words in
concordances like Youngs or Strongs in order to check the translation
of the words..

You were the one who pointed out the (apparent) dichotomy..

Phil

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Phil Launchbury, Network & Infrastructure PHB
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'Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they
are quick to anger and have no need of subtlety'
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Except your example isn't very good when it comes to Biblical translation,
mainly because Bible translators have a long and noble tradition of
liberally borrowing from each other. Especially so as most translators
have relied upon the Vulgate rather than the original texts.

Even the KJV borrows heavily from Wycliffe's work a century earlier.

So, if you have 9 versions that were all drawn from the same Latin source
and 1 version which was taken from the original Greek/Hebrew _then_ which
one do you believe?


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The speccy Geordie twat.

 

uk.religion.chritianity

<fx : Looks it up in the "Bastards Big Book of Religions">

Chritianity - A small, specialised sub-sect of the main Christian movement
who follow conventional dogma, but believe that the letter "S" represents
the serpent and is, therefore, evil. They eagerly await the second coming
of Jeu

Ah, it all makes sense now.


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Nope. Sorry - the Vulgate is *not* heavily used
by later translaters - for example Tyndales translation
(which forms the basis of the 1611 KJV was done from source - not
from the Vulgate.

In fact I can't think of a version that is from the Vulgate
except maybe the Jerusalem Bible..

So name me 9 versions done from the Vulgate..

Phil


--
Phil Launchbury, Network & Infrastructure PHB
Triumph Tiger 955i
'Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they
are quick to anger and have no need of subtlety'
Remove sick person to email me

 

The compilers of the KJV used many different sources, as the foreword by the
translators (still found in most KJV bibles) tells us. They even used
Wycliffe's works which were based entirely upon the Vulgate.

Anyway, Samual Ward speaking to the Synod of Dort in 1618 about the KJV
assured that the translators/revisers had been cautioned that an entirely
new bible was not the agenda and that the text should be based as closely on
the Bishop's Bible as possible. "As little altered as the truth of the
original will permit" where his exact words as recorded at the time.

The Bishop's Bible (1568) was, of course, based almost entirely upon the
Great Bible, with the text checked against the reading of two Latin
translations; Pagninus and Munster.

The Great Bible (1539) was compiled by Miles Coverdale on the orders of
Cromwell (Thomas, not Oliver) and was a revision of Matthew's Bible.
Cromwell told Coverdale to rely upon Matthew's Bible, but also to use the
Vulgate, Sebastian Munster's Latin OT and Erasmus' Latin translation of the
NT.

Matthew's Bible (1537) was, more or less, Tyndale's translation and although
it claimed to be published by Thomas Matthew, that was a psuedonym for John
Rodgers a friend of Tyndales. The sections of the OT left uncompleted by
Tyndale were filled in using Coverdale's work. Coverdale knew little Hebrew
or Greek and drew only from the Vulgate and two German translations.

Even then what Tyndale followed for the New Testament translation wasn't the
original Greek text, it was translation into Latin done by Erasmus. The Old
Testament (as much of it as he completed) was based on a number of sources;

"In addition to a number of editions of the Hebrew scriptures, Tyndale had
access, of course, to the Septuagint, the Vulgate, Luther's German
translation (published in 1526) and the literal word-for-word translation
'with a strong Hebrew emphasis' made by Sanctus Pagninus into Latin and
published in 1528"
The Making of the English Bible, Benson Bobrick (Pheonix 2003)

OK, so maybe I was a bit heavy-handed to say that most translators relied
upon the Vulgate, but it does get rather a lot of mentions above, you may
notice.

However, I think all of the above shows that it hardly true to say that
Tyndale's translation was done from source. Even where Hebrew texts are
mentioned (in the quoted passage above) it is clear that there were a number
of different versions of them to work from.

How many times does the Vulgate get mentioned above just looking at one
stream of translation?

Anyway, the point was that hardly anybody does a brand new translation
directly from source material, which makes your original point about 10
Bibles where 9 of them say the same thing irrelevant, as we can clearly see
that if we have 9 Bibles that say the same things it is probably because,
somewhere in their history, they've drawn from the same source.

BTW, I think it's just the two of us left now - fancy a pint?


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The speccy Geordie twat.

 

<<FX: Sound of scuffling from dark corner of room>>

I was listening too. Can I come? Please?

 

Only if you bring a couple of Bibles with you.


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The speccy Geordie twat.

 

They burn my hands :-(

 

Yup. Which is why it's a good idea to:

a) Compare versions cos the agendas become more obvious
(and preferrably ones from different streams)

b) Get literal versions like the Triglott that have the
original Greek and Hebrew along with a literal translation and

c) Get a decent concordance like Youngs or Strongs
so you can check the translations and definitions..

Would the world survive?

Phil


--
Phil Launchbury, Network & Infrastructure PHB
Triumph Tiger 955i
'Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they
are quick to anger and have no need of subtlety'
Remove sick person to email me