I went to church on Sunday

Onejob · Aug 27, 2003

^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^
that's not the reason for correctly trimming replies.
Click to expand...

I know. It's to stop annoying twats who get annoyed at these things.
But then again, if you're that much of a twat, you deserve to be
annoyed.

Phil Launchbury · Aug 28, 2003

Eh? That makes even less sense than most of the stuff we get round here.
He designs a test that he knows they are going to fail and then gets all
pissy when they fail.
Click to expand...

Think small children. You make a rule for them *knowing* that at some
point they will transgress that rule. Doesn't mean that the rule
is bad though does it?

Is there an on-line version?
Click to expand...

Dunno.. probably. The online Bible I use has all sorts of
versions.. Except the RSV :-(

It does have the ASV which is the US version of the RSV.. and loads
of other versions.

http://bible.gospelcom.net/

Phil

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PeterT · Aug 28, 2003

"Andrewr At Work"

"PeterT"

Well this is the age old problem of Biblical translation, especially
when the original Hebrew or Greek uses a word that can have several
valid translations into either Latin or English.

You wouldn't believe how much blood has been shed over issues as trivial
as whether a particular word should be read as "church" or
"congregation".
Click to expand...

I know, and not just has been, in a round about way still is.

PeterT · Aug 28, 2003

Phil Launchbury said:

Think small children. You make a rule for them *knowing* that at some
point they will transgress that rule. Doesn't mean that the rule
is bad though does it?
Click to expand...

So that is the meaning of, 'we are all gods children'?

No dinner, and off to bed?

And I dispute the *knowing*.

I wouldn't make a rule *knowing* it will be transgressed.
I might expect or fear it, but if I know it, whats the point
of making the rule in first place. I rather explain why it
would be bad to persue a certain course of action.

Mick Whittingham · Aug 28, 2003

No, if God was a woman then most of the Bible would read quite
differently.

Genesis Chap 3;

3:9 God called to the man, and said to him, "Where are you?"

3:10 The man said, "I heard your voice in the garden, and I was afraid,
because I was naked; and I hid myself."

3:11 God said, "Who told you that you were naked? Have you eaten from
the tree that I commanded you not to eat from?"

3:12 The man said, "The woman whom you gave to be with me, she gave me
of the tree, and I ate."

3:13 God said to the woman, "What is this you have done?" The woman
said, "The serpent deceived me, and I ate."

3:14 God said nothing more and mighty thunder peeled as they stamped
off, East of Eden, to make a nice cup of tea.

3:15 And the man said unto God, "What is it that I have done that has
offended you so?"

3:16 God said nothing, for God pretended not to hear.

3:17 Again the man said to God, "How have I offended thee?"

3:18 God said to the man, "Well if you don't know then I shall not tell
you."

3:19 The man said unto God, "If you're going to be like that I am going
to go and sup of the vine"

3:20 God said to the man, "Oh, and I suppose that woman is going to be
there as well, is she? I see she's got some clothes on, that makes a
change."

3:21 The man said, "She is but a friend and at least she talks to me."

3:22 God's face was like thunder and God said, "Well go then, but do not
expect me to be waiting when you return."
Click to expand...

This stuff is right from the heart!

Written by some one who has experienced the wroth of God herself!

Alan.T.Gower · Aug 28, 2003

3:22 God's face was like thunder and God said, "Well go then, but do not
expect me to be waiting when you return."
Click to expand...

Brilliant but you'll probably burn in hell.

PeterT · Aug 28, 2003

"Phil Launchbury"

"PeterT"

Accurate in that it manages to be a pretty much
direct translation while still being in readable English.

Translations vary according to whether they
directly translate the original Hebrew/Greek idiom (eg. "it finds
delight in my eyes" = "I like it a lot")
Click to expand...

Well, both are translations.

or whether they try to
convey the sense of the passage by translating the text
into the equivalent English idiom.
Click to expand...

Which differs greatly depending on the person doing the translation and
their intention/agenda. The idioms used by one person, let's say Bear,
to express the dislike of having found Adam doing the nasty with Eve,
will read somewhat different from the ones another person, maybe Charders,
may use.

The RSV manages to balance the line between direct translation
like the KJV and the 'optimised' translation of versions like the NIV.

Both sorts have their place - since no translation is perfect you can
smooth out the transmission errors by comparing versions..
Click to expand...

Except you disregard the versions you don't like.

Phil Launchbury · Aug 28, 2003

"Phil Launchbury"

Except you disregard the versions you don't like.
Click to expand...

Nope. But data well outside the bell curve can be seen to
be corrupted.

Phil

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Ace · Aug 28, 2003

Nope. But data well outside the bell curve can be seen to
be corrupted.
Click to expand...

Rough translation: "if it doesn't fit the model, we ignore it. " Which
seems to be exactly what Peter was saying.
Click to expand...

PeterT · Aug 28, 2003

"Ace"

"Phil Launchbury"
Click to expand...

Can, not necessarily is. It may require a rethinking of the premises.

Rough translation: "if it doesn't fit the model, we ignore it. " Which
seems to be exactly what Peter was saying.
Click to expand...

*ding*

AndrewR · Aug 28, 2003

Champ said:

On Thu, 28 Aug 2003 09:18:06 +0100, Phil Launchbury

<thinks> er, I know I'm pretty poorly qualified to comment on this,
being both childless and atheist, but I can't imagine a situiation
where a you'd make a rule for children that had any value if you
*knew* they were going to break it.
Click to expand...

More than that, you know they are going to break it and you give them the
only possible opportunity to break it, turn your back while they are busy
breaking it and send somebody along to tempt them to break it.

The only analogy I can think of is telling your toddler, "You must never,
ever, play with fire!" and then setting their bedroom alight and locking
them in.

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The Older Gentleman · Aug 28, 2003

Andrewr At Work said:

Genesis Chap 3;
Click to expand...

<snip>

Superb.

Phil Launchbury · Aug 29, 2003

Rough translation: "if it doesn't fit the model, we ignore it. " Which
seems to be exactly what Peter was saying.
Click to expand...

You have 10 bits of data. 9 agree very closely with each other. The
10th bit has obviously been massaged to say what the person who did
it wanted it to say.

Would you use it?

Phil

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Click to expand...

Phil Launchbury · Aug 29, 2003

<thinks> er, I know I'm pretty poorly qualified to comment on this,
being both childless and atheist, but I can't imagine a situiation
where a you'd make a rule for children that had any value if you
*knew* they were going to break it.
Click to expand...

"Don't take sweets out of the jar without asking".

Unless said child is a paragon of virtue at some point they
*will* transgress that rule. The one time they break it doesn't
negate the 99.9% of times they keep it..

Phil

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Triumph Tiger 955i
'Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they
are quick to anger and have no need of subtlety'
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Ace · Aug 29, 2003

"Don't take sweets out of the jar without asking".

Unless said child is a paragon of virtue at some point they
*will* transgress that rule. The one time they break it doesn't
negate the 99.9% of times they keep it..
Click to expand...

Not quite the same as laying down a once-only rule knowing that it
would be broken, though.

Ace · Aug 29, 2003

You have 10 bits of data. 9 agree very closely with each other. The
10th bit has obviously been massaged to say what the person who did
it wanted it to say.

Would you use it?
Click to expand...

How do you know it wasn't the other 9 bits that have been 'massaged'?
I'd be frankly much more suspicious of ten different sources telling
exactly the same story, as would any police detective.

In statistical analysis, of course, we deal with finite data values,
so outlyers are sometimes rejected, although only after
re-investigation shows that the value is indeed erroneous. And, of
course, that the proportion of such outlyers is not statistically
significant.

If it's one in ten, or even one in fifty, then it would almost
certainly be considered significant and therefore considered in any
further analysis.
Click to expand...

Mick Whittingham · Aug 29, 2003

Ace said:

How do you know it wasn't the other 9 bits that have been 'massaged'?
I'd be frankly much more suspicious of ten different sources telling
exactly the same story, as would any police detective.
Click to expand...

Or Lord Hutton.........................

PeterT · Aug 29, 2003

"Phil Launchbury"

"Ace"

You have 10 bits of data. 9 agree very closely with each other. The
10th bit has obviously been massaged to say what the person who did
it wanted it to say.
Click to expand...

Now, you're the one saying it's been 'obviously' massaged, but that's just
what you want to say.

Would you use it?
Click to expand...

To the same degree all 9 bits of 'data' are massaged too.

Now, using scientific analogies in a religious debate, in a pro
way must be a first.

Phil Launchbury · Aug 29, 2003

How do you know it wasn't the other 9 bits that have been 'massaged'?
Click to expand...

Because I'm not paranoid. And I have the law of averages on
my side. Especially as those 9 bits of data
have origination dates spread over 400 years..

I'd be frankly much more suspicious of ten different sources telling
exactly the same story, as would any police detective.
Click to expand...

Did I say 'exactly the same'? Read above..

In statistical analysis, of course, we deal with finite data values,
so outlyers are sometimes rejected, although only after
re-investigation shows that the value is indeed erroneous. And, of
course, that the proportion of such outlyers is not statistically
significant.
Click to expand...

Indeed. Which is what I was trying to say above..

If it's one in ten, or even one in fifty, then it would almost
certainly be considered significant and therefore considered in any
further analysis.
Click to expand...

Said comparison is part of the process..

Phil

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'Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they
are quick to anger and have no need of subtlety'
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Phil Launchbury · Aug 29, 2003

Not quite the same as laying down a once-only rule knowing that it
would be broken, though.
Click to expand...

So what is the difference between you saying "don't take a sweet from
the jar" (knowing at some point that the child will) and God saying
"don't eat the fruit from that tree" and knowing that at some time man
will transgress?

Phil.

--
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Triumph Tiger 955i
'Do not meddle in the affairs of sysadmins, for they
are quick to anger and have no need of subtlety'
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I went to church on Sunday

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