[QUOTE="Dan L"] Akkshirley that's one (but not the main) reason I quite like to be at the back on runs like the BOTAFOT, as it gives a good opportunity to observe other rider's lines through corners 'n stuff.[/QUOTE] Whilst I take your point, Dan - and the wry, tongue-in-cheek, self-deprecating delivery ... you're not in the right place *at the back*. If you want to obs lines, join a /good/ IAM group, or do the RoSPA course ... or get yourself to nearly the front of the middle group on a big 'FOT. TB brutally frank, you'll learn fuckall at the back of the 'slow' group. They are slow because they don't GAF about riding quickly, taking the best (or any) lines, overtaking properly or in fact, riding much at all. At the risk of having my arse singed, your best way forward is (for example, and IME) a Bear observed ride. Or come to that, an obs'd ride by any experienced rider who can put the point across without making you feel like a piece of slow shit - and Bear can do that. But really - you'll learn sweet FA sitting at the back of a slow group, man. You need to watch riders that have at least clues 1 and 2 about what they're doing - and they will not be sitting at the back of the stragglers (unless it's SimonK running in yet another cutting-edge sportsbike on brand-new tyres) ...