"kiwipete" wrote[QUOTE] "Theo Bekkers" wrote[/QUOTE] [QUOTE] No.... have a look at primitive cultures... not all had the "moral" values in their socity... even with so-called religion... look at the Mayans... did they not kill children in the name of sacrifice?[/QUOTE] Like Jacob was asked to by his God? [QUOTE] Did they not practise cannibalism? the same with the Maori's... they were cannibals...[/QUOTE] You misunderstand morals Pete. Cannabalism is not about morality as it is only practised on your captured enemies to gain thei power. It is a religious thing. [QUOTE] Some cultures practised morality... however the system of law that gave us the modern basis on which our government is built came from the Greeks and in later time was drawn from the Magna Carta which gave rights to the poor and the "common man". Gobbledegook! [/QUOTE] [QUOTE] Well as a matter of fact it was a system of law put into place to prevent that sort of thing... it set God's law into motion... and was the basis of the Jewish government of the time... i am sure you will agree that deep down we know whats right... you have said that.... I wonder why we know that... I wonder where that came from... is it... if you are a Siggy Freud (sp) fan an inbult thing or is it if you believe Jung a leanrnt thing... I believe its a bit of both...[/QUOTE] You actually believe the Jews, and all other societies, did not have the "commandments" in place in law or by implication before God [QUOTE] True... but mentioning the so-called "Mosaic law" before I said that the law confirmed and set guidelines... before that there was a lot of chaos... and the people had no guidelines...[/QUOTE] You mean people were confused as to whether they should kill their neighbours or just take their stuff? ROTFL [QUOTE] We are as you say a tribal being... but if our instincts were the only things we should follow as you suggest... then it would be chaos...[/QUOTE] Our instincts, as the instinct of all herd animals, make us think we can be safer, more secure, and achieve more together than alone. It follows from this that to work together for the common good we have to respect each others property, etc. You find this concept to be difficult to grasp, and not possible without the presence of a deity? [QUOTE] Yes... religion may have... I will concede many religions do but we are talking about our society and the need for moral guidelines... and this is where we disagree... I believe that the morality of the Christian bible needs to be a guideline for our society... not a big stick... not a rulebook but a guideline...[/QUOTE] So, to take the bible as our guideline, we should ask god to help us kill all of our enemies, including women and children, and take their land. Hey, that's working in Iraq right now. We learn in the bible tha t the only lives that matter are those of the chosen people, all others may be, nay, should be, killed for their lands and riches. God will help us do this. Theo